Universal Healthcare

[Crystallas]

It's pretty hard to argue with someone who can't even acknowledge the facts. I think that's a good sign to give up.

I know, right. Well, not all people understand that there are more than 1 or 2 sides to a social problem, so I don't expect them to acknowledge the facts anytime soon.

 

[Crystallas]

Incorrect. A free marker doesn't mean that it has no regulation or controls at all. It just means that it's a market where anyone can start a business and compete with other businesses for customers. The healthcare/insurance market is that.

I never said that a free market has no regulation, it is impossible to have 0 regulation, but you can be a lot closer to a free market. But we are far from a free market. If there is no free-entry, there is no free market.

Free market | Define Free market at Dictionary.com

 

[Crystallas]

I don't have a plan for lowering the cost. Should I have?

Absolutely. Why wouldn't you want to lower costs? All is not perfect as is, and not all costs are equal.

 

[Valjean]

The costs will lower automatically. Just do what one of the other countries with a superior system and a quarter to half our cost has done. Quit trying to reinvent the wheel.

A wholesale product or service will always be cheaper than retail.

 

[Alceste]

The costs will lower automatically. Just do what one of the other countries with a superior system and a quarter to half our cost has done. Quit trying to reinvent the wheel.

A wholesale product or service will always be cheaper than retail.

Exactly. A single payer system has a cost-reducing effect proportional to the cost-increasing effect of a single, profit-motivated seller (or a small handful of sellers working together, as is the case with US health care).

 

[Reverend Rick]

A wholesale product or service will always be cheaper than retail.

And less profitable too.

With the incentive to make great money removed, do you see as many surgeons going to school and working as an intern for all those years?

Oh yeah, how will they pay their student debt?

No attitude, just saying........will people clear this large hurdle once the incentive to do so is removed?

I'm just doing the math here, less money to be made and more folks to be serviced with less folks doing what is necessary to be qualified.

Will all these low paid doctors with high DIR's still have to worry about being sued for malpractice?

If I am a million in debt and barely have a six figure income, would I even purchase malpractice insurance? I mean what are you going to take away from me anyway?

Just saying.........

 

[Crystallas]

The costs will lower automatically. Just do what one of the other countries with a superior system and a quarter to half our cost has done. Quit trying to reinvent the wheel.

Hmm, automatically. Do I clap my hands?

A wholesale product or service will always be cheaper than retail.

Almost always. But I agree, that's why we should get the government out of our healthcare, and allow for medicine to be practiced more efficiently, instead of driving up our costs and inflating our currency to all ends and bailing out the nations with their own "universal healthcare".

 

[Crystallas]

And less profitable too.

With the incentive to make great money removed, do you see as many surgeons going to school and working as an intern for all those years?

Oh yeah, how will they pay their student debt?

No attitude, just saying........will people clear this large hurdle once the incentive to do so is removed?

I'm just doing the math here, less money to be made and more folks to be serviced with less folks doing what is necessary to be qualified.

Will all these low paid doctors with high DIR's still have to worry about being sued for malpractice?

If I am a million in debt and barely have a six figure income, would I even purchase malpractice insurance? I mean what are you going to take away from me anyway?

Just saying.........

Oh, the government pays for all of that too. It's all free. No incentives needed, no humans, just robots that follow orders.

Someone should be bailing us out, so we can pay for all of the student loans and debt. They should pay us for our military too. They should pay equally what we pay to use advanced drugs and treatments, instead of us bearing the majority of the medical R&D for the world.

Nah, let's just ignore all of that. We don't need the US to use a different approach, one that made us the greatest nation in the history of the world. We should ignore all of it, throw the baby out with the bath water, become socialists. You know, because there is nowhere for socialists to go in the world and live their lifestyle.

 

[Alceste]

And less profitable too.

With the incentive to make great money removed, do you see as many surgeons going to school and working as an intern for all those years?

Oh yeah, how will they pay their student debt?

No attitude, just saying........will people clear this large hurdle once the incentive to do so is removed?

I'm just doing the math here, less money to be made and more folks to be serviced with less folks doing what is necessary to be qualified.

Will all these low paid doctors with high DIR's still have to worry about being sued for malpractice?

If I am a million in debt and barely have a six figure income, would I even purchase malpractice insurance? I mean what are you going to take away from me anyway?

Just saying.........

You're just saying what? That despite the fact that every developed nation in the world EXCEPT the United States successfully recruits, trains, employs and compensates surgeons and other health care professionals despite having a single payer system, Americans are so incompetent that they could not possibly figure out how to solve these problems? Why wouldn't Americans be able to solve problems that every other developed nation in the world has already solved? (Please, be merciful and leave the Mexicans out of this for the sake of my sanity

By the way, I don't want to be too hard on you, I know you're fresh out of surgery. I do, however, want to stress the fact that if you lived next door to me, the surgery - and all your other surgeries - would have cost you nothing. Zero dollars. Not one penny above the $60.00 a month that BC charges the highest earning people in BC for health insurance.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I in general agree with it. If you couldn't afford healthcare and you were suffering from a disease that could kill you slowly, you would have said the same thing. It doesn't even take that, it just takes a dose of Liberalism such as I

 

[Valjean]

And less profitable too.

With the incentive to make great money removed, do you see as many surgeons going to school and working as an intern for all those years?

Oh yeah, how will they pay their student debt?

No attitude, just saying........will people clear this large hurdle once the incentive to do so is removed?

I'm just doing the math here, less money to be made and more folks to be serviced with less folks doing what is necessary to be qualified.

Will all these low paid doctors with high DIR's still have to worry about being sued for malpractice?

If I am a million in debt and barely have a six figure income, would I even purchase malpractice insurance? I mean what are you going to take away from me anyway?

Just saying.........

That's the whole point -- take the profit out of healthcare. Make it like police and fire services.
And yet people still go to medical school in all the other developed countries. There are more motives in the world than profit.
Student debt? That's a subject for a whole new thread. You do realize that massive student debt is a peculiarly American phenomenon? Take "the market" out of education and the problem goes away. (Ie: let the government manage it and the problem goes away).
You're sitting in an airport and arguing the impossibility of heavier-than-air flight. You're either impossibly obtuse, or a troll.

Hmm, automatically. Do I clap my hands?

Just acknowledge the reality of the rest of the world.

Almost always. But I agree, that's why we should get the government out of our healthcare, and allow for medicine to be practiced more efficiently, instead of driving up our costs and inflating our currency to all ends and bailing out the nations with their own "universal healthcare".

Again, you're ignoring the experience of the rest of the world. It's private healthcare that's inefficient; that's driving up costs. How can a system that extracts profity at every step of the game not be expensive? How can a system that reduplicates services endlessly not be inefficient and expensive? It's only government that can deliver or mediate a streamlined, efficient, non-profit, wholesale product. The evidence is all around you.

 

[Crystallas]

Again, you're ignoring the experience of the rest of the world. It's private healthcare that's inefficient; that's driving up costs. How can a system that extracts profity at every step of the game not be expensive? How can a system that reduplicates services endlessly not be inefficient and expensive? It's only government that can deliver or mediate a streamlined, efficient, non-profit, wholesale product. The evidence is all around you.

You're ignoring that private institutes are not so private in the US. That is a failure, and instead of trying to get the money out of Washington, we want to give them more?

 

[Valjean]

You're ignoring that private institutes are not so private in the US. That is a failure, and instead of trying to get the money out of Washington, we want to give them more?

What you mean "we," kimosabe?
I'm not advocation giving the amoral, sociopathic, for-profit corporations more. I'm advocating cutting them off and running the whole system ourselves.

 

[Crystallas]

What you mean "we," kimosabe?
I'm not advocation giving the amoral, sociopathic, for-profit corporations more. I'm advocating cutting them off and running the whole system ourselves.

That's what I want to do, and I don't want to increase the "cookie jar" size, so corporations can just come into a new generation and hijack our government again.

That reminds me, there was a book written about how healthcare costs and the local climate have a lot to do with availability and cost. Such as anywhere south of the 50 degree latitude line has a massive increase in healthcare cost just by the rules of nature. And no, this is not some silly corporatist study, it was an independent study, actually done by a university. Does anyone remember the study or the book?

 

[Reverend Rick]

That's the whole point -- take the profit out of healthcare. Make it like police and fire services.

Don't forget teachers too. We all know public education is working so well.

And yet people still go to medical school in all the other developed countries. There are more motives in the world than profit.

Thats why they come to America and start a practice right?

Student debt? That's a subject for a whole new thread. You do realize that massive student debt is a peculiarly American phenomenon? Take "the market" out of education and the problem goes away. (Ie: let the government manage it and the problem goes away).

You do realize that government run high school does little to prepair our children for college right? Please say you are not in favor of dumbing down our colleges to high school performance levels are you?

You're sitting in an airport and arguing the impossibility of heavier-than-air flight. You're either impossibly obtuse, or a troll.

We have been posting together much too long to be trolling one another.

Is it really being obtuse believing you can remove incentive and increase the work load with no adverse affects?

Would you be satisfied with a lower caliber of health care service just to save money or do you believe most doctors would come to work no matter what the pay scale was?

Most doctors are going to be fine without their fancy cars and country club memberships? The big house will have to be put on the market?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

or do you believe most doctors would come to work no matter what the pay scale was?

Most doctors are going to be fine without their fancy cars and country club memberships? The big house will have to be put on the market?

Jeez and I thought I was pessimistic about human greediness levels...

I doubt doctors put themselves before a slowly dying man.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Jeez and I thought I was pessimistic about human greediness levels...

I doubt doctors put themselves before a slowly dying man.

Why nooooo, they pay someone 10 bucks an hour to verify their insurance and send them packing if they do not qualify.

THEY NEVER LAY EYES ON THE SLOWLY DIEING MAN UNLESS HE HAS HEALTH INSURANCE!

 

[lunakilo]

Absolutely. Why wouldn't you want to lower costs? All is not perfect as is, and not all costs are equal.

Things are never perfect, but lowering the cost beond a certain point is not necessarily a good thing. If I neded to have surgery I would not feel comfetable with the cheapest offer.

I don't know the cost of medical care in the US, so I really can't tell if the prices are fair or not.
From what people say though I sounds like they are not.

I have no problem with the price of medical care in my own country. I pay 8% of my income in health taxes and don't have to worry about medical bills. I don't know if that is a lot or not, but I do not feel like someone is stealing my money.
After all I have needed to go the to hospital or the doctor from time to time, and I am glad not to have to worry about the bill.

So back to your question: "Why wouldn't I want to lower costs?"
If 8% of my income pays for decent medical care and lowering the amount does not pay for decent medical care, then 8% is what I want to pay.

 

[lunakilo]

Don't forget teachers too. We all know public education is working so well.

Well yes we do
I have two children in a public school, and they are doing great.
Sure it is not an american public school but a public school it is.

Thats why they come to America and start a practice right?

I wonder where all the doctors in my country comes from then

You do realize that government run high school does little to prepair our children for college right? Please say you are not in favor of dumbing down our colleges to high school performance levels are you?

I went to a public school, a public high school and a public university ( and I got paid to do it by the state, so no student loans ) so I have probably been brain washed into thinking that that worked out fine.
But that worked out fine

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Thats why they come to America and start a practice right?

Doctors are people, and like all people some will chase the fast buck.
Their home countries are well rid of such people.

There is no shortage of fine doctors in countries with Universal health care.

On the question of Student loans The UK has started to go down the American route on this. Interestingly, more of our students are moving to other European universities where the fees are lower or nonexistent.
But more alarmingly it looks like 20% of next years expected intake has dropped out of education, because of the £30,000.00 fees plus living costs. In my day both were covered by free grants.