Unconverted pastors, seminary students, and ministry leaders.

[Special Revelation]

God makes it clear in the Bible that there will be sheep and goats, wheat and tares in the visible church. The goats and tares (weeds) are unconverted souls in the church. God also tells us some of our church leaders will actually be wolves in sheep’s clothing (false teachers in the church).

There are many unconverted Christians in this world. They can actually be an elder, deacon, pastor or seminary student. I’m always cautious when a person boast about their professional religious training, or current ministry. I used to lived near Westminster Seminary West and a large non-denominational Bible College. I knew many gifted and humble seminary students who were truly called by God to serve in ministry. I have found that converted and mature Christian leaders rarely or never spoke about their professional religious credentials and training. I also knew well respected and known seminary professors and Christian leaders who never boasted about academic credentials. I cringe over the unconverted professional religious leaders and seminary students.

Here’s a portion of the book “Lectures To My Students” by C.H. Spurgeon

“How horrible to be a preacher of the gospel and yet to be unconverted! Let each man here whisper to his own inmost soul, “What a dreadful thing it will be for me if I should be ignorant of the power of the truth which I am preparing to proclaim!!” Unconverted ministry involves the most unnatural relationships. A graceless pastor is a blind man elected to a professorship of optics, philosophising upon light and vision, discoursing upon and distinguishing to other the nice shades and delicate blending of the prismatic colors, while he himself is absolutely in the dark! He is a dumb man elevated to the chair of music; a deaf man fluent upon symphonies and harmonies! He is a mole professing to educate eaglets; a limpet elected to preside over angels. To such a relationship one might apply the most absurd and grotesque metaphors, except that the subject is too solemn, It is a dreadful position for a man to stand in, for he has undertaken a work for which he is totally, wholly, and altogether unqualified, but because he willfully incurred them. Whatever his natural gifts, whatever his mental power may be, he is utterly out of court for spiritual work if he has no spiritual life… Page 10 -11.

What are your personal experiences regarding this subject? How do you discern unconverted spiritual leaders? How do you discern false teachers in your church?

 

[*Paul*]

God makes it clear in the Bible that there will be sheep and goats, wheat and tears in the visible church. The goats and tears (weeds) are unconverted souls in the church. God also tells us some of our church leaders will actually be wolves in sheep’s clothing (false teachers in the church).

This is why we must know the scriptures for ourselves, we can't go by men's opinions no matter how great their reputation may be. Every doctrine must be brought into line with scripture.

Here’s a portion of the book “Lectures To My Students” by C.H. Spurgeon

“How horrible to be a preacher of the gospel and yet to be unconverted! Let each man here whisper to his own inmost soul, “What a dreadful thing it will be for me if I should be ignorant of the power of the truth which I am preparing to proclaim!!” Unconverted ministry involves the most unnatural relationships. A graceless pastor is a blind man elected to a professorship of optics, philosphising upon light and vision, discoursing upon and distinguishing to other the nice shades and delicate blending of the prismatic colors, while he himself is absolutely in the dark! He is a dumb man elevated to the chair of music; a deaf man fluent upon symphonies and harmonies! He is a mole professing to educate eaglets; a limpet elected to preside over angels. To such a relationship one might apply the most absurd and grotesque metaphors, except that the subject is too solemn, It is a dreadful position for a man to stand in, for he has undertaken a work for which he is totally, wholly, and altogether unqualified, but because he willfully incurred them. Whatever his natural gifts, whatever his mental power may be, he is utterly out of court for spiritual work if he has no spiritual life… Page 10 -11.

I have this book, he was right of course.

What are your personal experiences regarding this subject?

I have found that people I have known who have been to bible college seem to have the impression that they should be listened to on that basis.
They seem to think that this verse
2nd Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
means that they should learn physchology, philosophy, mythology, textual critisism etc. This is because they view the bible as insufficient which for me disqualifies them as a Pastor of God's sheep.

How do you discern unconverted spiritual leaders? How do you discern false teachers in your church?

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Special Revelation]

I agree, we need to rely on biblical spiritual discernment. How about those who are new at learning biblical truth and sound doctrine. Here's what I have found:

The unconverted spiritual leader usually wants to be the center of attention. They seems to want the focus taken away from God, and have the crowd refocused on them.

 

[Bishka]

The goats and tears (weeds) are unconverted souls in the church.

Tears?

Don't you mean tares?

 

[kmkemp]

For that reason, I refuse to go to any church in which the people clap after the pastor says something. That pretty much rules out all Southern Baptist churches unfortunately. Likewise, any amount of showiness from the musicians turns me off. Still, I don't think these are definite rules, but things to look for. After a while, you can just tell where God is and isn't. (figuratively of course)

 

[Special Revelation]

Tears?

Don't you mean tares?

You see, we are good friends! Don't I know you from somewhere? Maybe we met at a church pot luck?

 

[Special Revelation]

For that reason, I refuse to go to any church in which the people clap after the pastor says something. That pretty much rules out all Southern Baptist churches unfortunately. Likewise, any amount of showiness from the musicians turns me off. Still, I don't think these are definite rules, but things to look for. After a while, you can just tell where God is and isn't. (figuratively of course)

Hey Brother,
Here's something to think about. The Southern Baptist Seminary swung staunch Calvinism in conviction several years ago. The seminary president is a staunch Calvinist. This is related to our free will dialog. Thanks again for your faithfulness for sharing Christ! I'm glad you are here on this site.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I don't think that I have ever met an unconverted pastor. I've seen ministers of all denomenations do things that would horrify (or should horrify) their people, and some of these sins are hidden and others are widely celebrated (like Paige Patterson's power-lust). There are plenty of them I imagine... as one who's been in and around seminaries for a while, I can attest to seeing plenty of people who should not be there.

I don't know what should be done about it - if anything. It's not something that can be controlled. In my experience, pastor search committees do whatever comes into their pea brains under the guise of "following the Holy Spirit" who presumably would call a "saved" pastor to their church, one who best will lead the church in a healthy way. However, 99.9% of churches call a pastor as if they were ordering a pizza. I know without doubt that seminary professors are called exactly the same way by some of the same people. Seminary students, of course, are just students and as clueless and naiive and stupid as one might expect.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

There are many unconverted Christians in this world. They can actually be an elder, deacon, pastor or seminary student. I’m always cautious when a person boast about their professional religious training, or current ministry. I used to lived near Westminster Seminary West and a large non-denominational Bible College. I knew many gifted and humble seminary students who were truly called by God to serve in ministry. I have found that converted and mature Christian leaders rarely or never spoke about their professional religious credentials and training. I also knew well respected and known seminary professors and Christian leaders who never boasted about academic credentials. I cringe over the unconverted professional religious leaders and seminary students.

You should leave students out of this. It is the responsibility of God and the teachers to guide the students to proper faith and practice. A good seminary is the best place for a lost person to be... no reason to cringe at a lost person being in an environment where they can daily participate in learning about God.

Also, you're completely missing the point of the parable about the tares. The workers ask the master what to do, and he says to do nothing - he will judge everyone when he's ready.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I don't recall the scriptures ever referring to an "Unconverted Pastor". Consequently, I will concentrate on what I find in scriptures: loving your neighbor as Christ loved YOU.

You see, I see a LOT of finger pointing in this world. Jesus discussed finger pointing once.

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." -NIV

I would much rather hear about the personal struggles a preacher is going through than all of these "What ifs". They are too dramatic and have little impact on how I will live my life. Hearing how to love others and specific examples on how this was done, is far more beneficial to the hearer as well as the speaker.

 

[Sunstone]

In my church, you can always tell the unconverted by their poor choice of beers. Most of the unconverted drink popular national brands rather than tasty microbrews when watching Girls On Trampolines. It's just a fact.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I don't recall the scriptures ever referring to an "Unconverted Pastor".

Yeah. A "lost" pastor or seminary prof with a kind heart and honest teaching will be much more useful to the church than a "saved" jerk. Saved folks in my experience make the most vile sinners.

Honestly, I wish this thread attracted more discussion. I've spent a lot of time in churches and seminaries - I've been in the circuit for the past 8 years in a variety of schools and churches.

 

[Sunstone]

Yeah. A "lost" pastor or seminary prof with a kind heart and honest teaching will be much more useful to the church than a "saved" jerk. Saved folks in my experience make the most vile sinners.

Honestly, I wish this thread attracted more discussion. I've spent a lot of time in churches and seminaries - I've been in the circuit for the past 8 years in a variety of schools and churches.

Well, I don't have any seminary experience, but the best professors of comparative religion I had were the ones who didn't wear their beliefs on their sleeves.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well, I don't have any seminary experience, but the best professors of comparative religion I had were the ones who didn't wear their beliefs on their sleeves.

They may be the only college profs who do that.

 

[McBell]

In my church, you can always tell the unconverted by their poor choice of beers. Most of the unconverted drink popular national brands rather than tasty microbrews when watching Girls On Trampolines. It's just a fact.

MGD or a Boston Lager. Haven't tried all the BL's yet so i still do not have a favourite...

 

[doppelganger]

Honestly, I wish this thread attracted more discussion.

What is there to discuss? The gist of the OP is that he wishes more pastors and pastors in training agreed with him.

The way I discern genuine "spiritual leaders" is by whether they speak with what I recognize to be the spirit of love. In many books, that also makes them "unconverted" and "unsaved."

 

[Sunstone]

They may be the only college profs who do that.

I don't know what it's like nowadays, but when I was in school three decades ago, there were quite a few profs who you never learned what their personal beliefs were in class.

 

[Special Revelation]

I don't recall the scriptures ever referring to an "Unconverted Pastor". Consequently, I will concentrate on what I find in scriptures: loving your neighbor as Christ loved YOU.

You see, I see a LOT of finger pointing in this world. Jesus discussed finger pointing once.

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." -NIV

I would much rather hear about the personal struggles a preacher is going through than all of these "What ifs". They are too dramatic and have little impact on how I will live my life. Hearing how to love others and specific examples on how this was done, is far more beneficial to the hearer as well as the speaker.

That's what the Bibe says Scuba Pete...

Acts 20
"Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

It's interesting Scuba that you do not have overseers to watch over you, and seem to mostly disagree and fight with *Paul* and myself. However, you have no troubles supporting and defending Mormon Christians. Do you know the theology of the LDS Church? You Scuba Pete are part of the apostate church :yes: , according to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Do you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God? How do you personally discern truth from error?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

What is there to discuss? The gist of the OP is that he wishes more pastors and pastors in training agreed with him.

The way I discern genuine "spiritual leaders" is by whether they speak with what I recognize to be the spirit of love. In many books, that also makes them "unconverted" and "unsaved."

How important it is to Christians that their leaders are "saved." If this is an issue with Christians, what can be done about it...

 

[Sunstone]

How important it is to Christians that their leaders are "saved." If this is an issue with Christians, what can be done about it...

Is there any statistical evidence that being saved makes you a more moral or better person?