Two Gods in the Bible

[Regiomontanus]

Hello. For a while now, ever since turning away from atheism and embracing the teachings of Jesus, I have been struggling with the problem of trying to reconcile the God of the Jewish scriptures (OT) and the NT.

This is an old problem of course:

"Marcion taught that the god of the Old Testament was not the true God but rather that the true and higher God had been revealed only with Jesus Christ. Marcion wrote the Antitheses to show the differences between the god of the Old Testament and the true God."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/marcion.html

Anyone here ever give this any thought? How do you reconcile this?

Peace

 

[Rival]

They cannot be reconciled. The Christian Testament being tacked on to the Hebrew Scriptures was one of the worst things to happen. The god of the Christians allows human sacrifice, something G-d would never allow, for instance.

Pick.

 

[Deeje]

Hello. For a while now, ever since turning away from atheism and embracing the teachings of Jesus, I have been struggling with the problem of trying to reconcile the God of the Jewish scriptures (OT) and the NT.

This is an old problem of course:

"Marcion taught that the god of the Old Testament was not the true God but rather that the true and higher God had been revealed only with Jesus Christ. Marcion wrote the Antitheses to show the differences between the god of the Old Testament and the true God."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/marcion.html

Anyone here ever give this any thought? How do you reconcile this?

Peace

Why take notice of Marcion? What makes his opinion so special? Was he an apostle or a Bible writer?

All we need is Jesus to explain the God of the OT. There are not two gods, but different times with different covenants and agendas.

Remember that there was the old covenant and the new covenant.....the same God authored both. Reconciling them is not difficult.

 

[Deeje]

They cannot be reconciled. The Christian Testament being tacked on to the Hebrew Scriptures was one of the worst things to happen. The god of the Christians allows human sacrifice, something G-d would never allow, for instance.

Pick.

There is no human sacrifice. Human sacrifice to false gods was condemned in the Bible, but the sacrifice of Jesus is done in the role of a redeemer, which according to Jewish law allowed someone to pay a debt to free someone who was enslaved.

Jesus' sacrifice is also called a "ransom" which is also the price set to free a captive.

 

[Rival]

There is no human sacrifice. Human sacrifice to false gods was condemned in the Bible, but the sacrifice of Jesus is done in the role of a redeemer, which according to Jewish law allowed someone to pay a debt to free someone who was enslaved.

Jesus' sacrifice is also called a "ransom" which is also the price set to free a captive.

This is the interfaith Dee; we can't debate.

 

[Regiomontanus]

They cannot be reconciled. The Christian Testament being tacked on to the Hebrew Scriptures was one of the worst things to happen. The god of the Christians allows human sacrifice, something G-d would never allow, for instance.

Pick.

Hello. As many scholars have pointed out, early Christians needed some way to make their new faith "legitimate" in that, back then in the Greco-Roman world, new philosophies did not get much respect; if it was old it had standing. So yes, by "clinging" to the NT it advanced their cause.

 

[Deeje]

This is the interfaith Dee; we can't debate.

Sorry Rival, was I debating? I thought I was correcting a misunderstanding.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Why take notice of Marcion? What makes his opinion so special? Was he an apostle or a Bible writer?

All we need is Jesus to explain the God of the OT. There are not two gods, but different times with different covenants and agendas.

Remember that there was the old covenant and the new covenant.....the same God authored both. Reconciling them is not difficult.

Hello. I mention Marcion simply as an example of an early Christian who struggled with this question.

I find it hard to believe that God, after a few hundred years, "changed his mind" and went from being vengeful and angry to the God of love. Is the creator of the universe really that fickle? Hmm.

 

[Rival]

Hello. I mention Marcion simply as an example of an early Christian who struggled with this question.

I find it hard to believe that God, after a few hundred years, "changed his mind" and went from being vengeful and angry to the God of love. Is the creator of the universe really that fickle? Hmm.

You need to delve in to the prophets more. G-d is definitely a loving G-d. He is also a G-d that wants people to be righteous. The lovey-dovey god of Christianity is incompatible with the realities of the world. G-d is a G-d that gets things done. If you and your entire village are unrepentant sinners then G-d doesn't have time for your nonsense and you get blown away.

I mean, in a manner of speaking

 

[Deeje]

Hello. I mention Marcion simply as an example of an early Christian who struggled with this question.

I find it hard to believe that God, after a few hundred years, "changed his mind" and went from being vengeful and angry to the God of love. Is the creator of the universe really that fickle? Hmm.

Where do you find a change from being vengeful and angry to the God of Love? He was always a God of love, but in times past when rival nations tried to take their God-given land from them, Israel was authorized to defend it....sometimes brutally because the nation who came against them knew nothing else. They came in the name of their gods and Jehovah proved to be superior. That was the message they took home with them in defeat.

When Jesus came, the situation was different. The Jews had dispersed and no longer were confined to their homeland. They were under Roman domination and not in a position to defend anything. Eventually, the old covenant was replaced by the new covenant and Jesus concentrated on recruiting as many of his fellow countrymen as he could to form the Kingdom government that would see all nations blessed by God for coming under the discipleship of his son.

It wasn't God who changed...it was the circumstances. And it was time for Jesus to choose the ones who would rule with him in his kingdom. This is what the new covenant was all about.

Have you looked at the final judgment of this world to see what this God of love is going to do with those who treat his son with disrespect? Perhaps you need to do some more reading of the Bible itself?

 

[Kenny]

Hello. For a while now, ever since turning away from atheism and embracing the teachings of Jesus, I have been struggling with the problem of trying to reconcile the God of the Jewish scriptures (OT) and the NT.

This is an old problem of course:

"Marcion taught that the god of the Old Testament was not the true God but rather that the true and higher God had been revealed only with Jesus Christ. Marcion wrote the Antitheses to show the differences between the god of the Old Testament and the true God."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/marcion.html

Anyone here ever give this any thought? How do you reconcile this?

Peace

I find that the OT must be seen through the eyes of Jesus. In other words, in the light of what Jesus said and did, as He is the expressed image and only did what the Father told him to do, revisit the OT in that light.

 

[shunyadragon]

Hello. For a while now, ever since turning away from atheism and embracing the teachings of Jesus, I have been struggling with the problem of trying to reconcile the God of the Jewish scriptures (OT) and the NT.

This is an old problem of course:

"Marcion taught that the god of the Old Testament was not the true God but rather that the true and higher God had been revealed only with Jesus Christ. Marcion wrote the Antitheses to show the differences between the god of the Old Testament and the true God."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/marcion.html

Anyone here ever give this any thought? How do you reconcile this?

Peace

Only two? The Pentateuch is clearly polytheistic depicting hierarchy of Gods..

 

[Rival]

The idea that Christians say you have to read the Hebrew Scriptures whilst already holding a belief in Jesus says a lot. It's a rather frank admission that, unless they already had the Jesus belief, they certainly wouldn't be able to spot it in the Jewish Scriptures.

Which is totally right.

Because it isn't there.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Where do you find a change from being vengeful and angry to the God of Love? He was always a God of love, but in times past when rival nations tried to take their God-given land from them, Israel was authorized to defend it....sometimes brutally because the nation who came against them knew nothing else. They came in the name of their gods and Jehovah proved to be superior. That was the message they took home with them in defeat.

When Jesus came, the situation was different. The Jews had dispersed and no longer were confined to their homeland. They were under Roman domination and not in a position to defend anything. Eventually, the old covenant was replaced by the new covenant and Jesus concentrated on recruiting as many of his fellow countrymen as he could to form the Kingdom government that would see all nations blessed by God for coming under the discipleship of his son.

It wasn't God who changed...it was the circumstances. And it was time for Jesus to choose the ones who would rule with him in his kingdom. This is what the new covenant was all about.

Have you looked at the final judgment of this world to see what this God of love is going to do with those who treat his son with disrespect? Perhaps you need to do some more reading of the Bible itself?

Hello. Thank you for sharing your views on this. "Sometimes brutally"...that is a good example. Love your enemies? Turn the other cheek? Do not resist evil (that is, with more of the same)? I see nothing but incompatibility there.

I have read the Bible straight through a few times now, different translations. It is precisely those readings that have caused this conflict in my mind.

 

[Regiomontanus]

I find that the OT must be seen through the eyes of Jesus. In other words, in the light of what Jesus said and did, as He is the expressed image and only did what the Father told him to do, revisit the OT in that light.

Hello. Thank you for sharing your views on this. Starting with the teachings/sayings of Jesus, I find it impossible (through his eyes) to make any sense out of the violence and (often times) anger of God the Father in the OT.

Conversely, starting with the OT, there seems to be a very sharp break in the attributes given to God when moving into the NT. The old was used to prove the new by trying to show it foretold of the coming of Christ, of course, but that does not (in my view) eliminate the dichotomy.

 

[Dell]

There is no human sacrifice. Human sacrifice to false gods was condemned in the Bible, but the sacrifice of Jesus is done in the role of a redeemer, which according to Jewish law allowed someone to pay a debt to free someone who was enslaved.

Jesus' sacrifice is also called a "ransom" which is also the price set to free a captive.

Hmm it sure seems to be the same in practice... God saw his suffering and was pleased.. we were healed by his stripes... he is also called the lamb or sacrifice...
Hmm, Jesus is not being victimized as a human sacrifice, really!!! To cover it up is because it is embarrassing to today's thinking and makes Christianity seem so paganish... like a virgin thrown into a volcano.

 

[Jim]

Hello. For a while now, ever since turning away from atheism and embracing the teachings of Jesus, I have been struggling with the problem of trying to reconcile the God of the Jewish scriptures (OT) and the NT. ...
Anyone here ever give this any thought?

I've given it a lot of thought over a period of 50 years or more.

How do you reconcile this?

I've stopped trying to reconcile it. I think now that all questions about G-d in HImself do nothing but distract and divert us from using our lore and scriptures for what they're for. That includes questions like what kind of a person He is, how many of Him there are, and even whether or not He exists or is real.

I'm surprised that you only see two Gods. I see many. As I see it now, He uses analogies of a person saying and doing things, to teach us things, and puts that word "God" in the place of a person. You can think of Him as many persons, or as a person with multiple personalities, it doesn't matter. What matters is the parable, or allegory, or analogy, or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Kenny]

Hello. Thank you for sharing your views on this. Starting with the teachings/sayings of Jesus, I find it impossible (through his eyes) to make any sense out of the violence and (often times) anger of God the Father in the OT.

Conversely, starting with the OT, there seems to be a very sharp break in the attributes given to God when moving into the NT. The old was used to prove the new by trying to show it foretold of the coming of Christ, of course, but that does not (in my view) eliminate the dichotomy.

It certainly is a difficult and daunting task, for sure. Any life that is lost is always impacting and difficult. To wade through this will always be a work.

But let me give you an example:

Jesus, as well as other NT scriptures, attributed much of the suffering to Satan rather than to God. Certainly we never see Jesus saying to the worst of people, "You walking dead man, here, take CANCER as your recompense"... but rather he went about "doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the Devil" for "It is the thief who comes to kill, steal and destroy, but I have come to give live and that more abundantly".

Many times we attributed the death of the firstborn of Egypt to God killing babies. But what if we have misinterpreted that? What if God had been protecting Egypt all along from the gods that they served (which included human sacrifices)? What if He finally said "I can protect you no longer, if you are going to serve those gods, then I will let them have the authority over your lives as you have desired?"

So when I go back to those scriptures I find this in Ex 12:23 "For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you." which is a reference that Jesus mentioned that it is the thief that comes to destroy.

I see a few points here:

• It wasn't God who did the act.
• God still had to protect people (which in my view supports the possibility that He was protecting people all along
• Other scriptures mentioned that YHWY was judging the gods of Egypt

No matter what, it is still difficult to be sure. We also have many other factors of which some we know about and some we don't. We do know that the Egyptians had killed male Jewish babies and what we don't know is what would be the future of the Israelites had He not intervened.

The short of the long of it is "What if God had been long-suffering all along protecting the Egyptians from the consequences of their lifestyle but finally said, 'You have made your decision and I release you to the gods you serve'?"

I suppose, ultimately, we each have to come to our own conclusions.

 

[74x12]

Hello. For a while now, ever since turning away from atheism and embracing the teachings of Jesus, I have been struggling with the problem of trying to reconcile the God of the Jewish scriptures (OT) and the NT.

This is an old problem of course:

"Marcion taught that the god of the Old Testament was not the true God but rather that the true and higher God had been revealed only with Jesus Christ. Marcion wrote the Antitheses to show the differences between the god of the Old Testament and the true God."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/marcion.html

Anyone here ever give this any thought? How do you reconcile this?

Peace

No, it's simply insulting of God and a lie. I hate the idea that some people come up with which is that the God of the old Testament is not loving or kind. God was loving and kind throughout the scriptures. However both the new and old Testaments also emphasize the severity of God in judgment. That's because God isn't going to lie to you. He wants people to be fully warned because He loves them. If you study the scriptures long enough you find that God has not changed and that God was throughout the scriptures, full of love, grace, mercy and absolute truth. True to Himself and true to His creation. The more and deeper you study the scriptures the more you find God's love is hidden everywhere.

But satan likes to twist things in our minds so that all we can see is the severity of God and not His mercy. Often times when it's like that it is a messenger of satan whispering thoughts in our mind. Bringing doubt etc.
So the thoughts we think are our own maybe are not. I know it sounds bizarre (and it is) but it's true nonetheless. God doesn't hate us because of thoughts that we can't control. (Romans 7:20, Romans 8:31, Romans 8:38-39)

Still these thoughts have to be opposed with the truth. (Proverbs 30:5, Matthew 4:4) That's where faith comes in. (Ephesians 6:16) Because yes these evil spirits will come and put thoughts in your mind against the truth and against God. I can't stress this fact enough. You won't always have the answer. You won't always be able to refute satan's logic. But it is a lie nonetheless and God reveals the truth to you in time after you've passed the test.

To many Christians turn away from God just because a thought enters their mind they don't know how to deal with. (2 Corinthians 10:5) That's because it's no longer taught enough and emphasized enough that we're in a real war and the battle is real.

 

[Jim]

Hello. Thank you for sharing your views on this. Starting with the teachings/sayings of Jesus, I find it impossible (through his eyes) to make any sense out of the violence and (often times) anger of God the Father in the OT.

Conversely, starting with the OT, there seems to be a very sharp break in the attributes given to God when moving into the NT. The old was used to prove the new by trying to show it foretold of the coming of Christ, of course, but that does not (in my view) eliminate the dichotomy.

My current thoughts about this are only a week or two old, and I’m still struggling to try to explain them. A different way from what I said in my earlier post is that what religious lore and scriptures say about G-d is a collection of analogies of a person saying and doing things, to teach us about our possibilities in life. They often use the same name for that person, and sometimes they seem to be saying that they actually all are the same person, but that doesn’t mean that they all refer to some actual being or beings that we can take apart to see what He’s made of. He tells us Himself that that is a futile exercise. Worse than futile because it confuses, demoralized and divides us, and distracts and diverts us from learning what we could be learning from our lore and scriptures, and from each other.