Truth & Understanding.

[AmbiguousGuy]

So what you're saying is that beliefs themselves are neither true nor false, because they're a state of being that you either hold or you don't.

That works OK for me. I would say that 'true' makes no good sense to me objectively. We can't know what is true in the same way that God, if God, could know what was true. We hallucinate. We go insane. We make logic mistakes.

But most of us have brains which work desperately to ignore all that and remain in the solid certainty that our beliefs match external reality, no matter what.

All our beliefs are true. It's just a claim we humans make.

Would you agree that the contents and claims of beliefs can be true or untrue, though?

They might be, but we humans could never be privvy to that info. Not unless we are actual prophets of God.

We're fallible in all sorts of ways.

 

[Jeremiah]

I see you are holding an untrue belief that my belief is untrue. Isn't that kinda silly?

Waffle after fire lemon.

 

[Quintessence]

Ah, I think I understand a bit better now.

I think when most people speak of truth, though, they mean truth insofar as humans are capable of grasping it. That is, after all, the best we can do. It should be a given that we've got knowledge limits; we can continue to seek understanding in spite of that, yes?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I think when most people speak of truth, though, they mean truth insofar as humans are capable of grasping it. That is, after all, the best we can do.

That hasn't been my experience. Most of the people I encounter seem to assume that their 'knowledge' matches external reality molecule for molecule. I mean, some stuff they only believe; they could be wrong about that. But other stuff, they actually know.

It should be a given that we've got knowledge limits; we can continue to seek understanding in spite of that, yes?

In my view, we can only seek understanding if we accept our own ignorance, our possibility of error. How can a person learn something which he already knows?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Waffle after fire lemon.

That's an untrue belief. You should try to correct it.

 

[Quintessence]

That hasn't been my experience. Most of the people I encounter seem to assume that their 'knowledge' matches external reality molecule for molecule. I mean, some stuff they only believe; they could be wrong about that. But other stuff, they actually know.

I think that you'd have to engage someone in conversation pretty deeply to get indications that they do not actually assume their map is the territory, so you're going to get the impression that "most people" superficially think this way. In our day to day lives, we pretty much have to operate as if our maps of the territory are the territory. Consequently, in everyday conversation we're going to talk about things like our map is the territory. I do this all the time, even though I don't actually think my map is the territory. You have to engage me in a deeper philosophical conversation for that to come out. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I think that you'd have to engage someone in conversation pretty deeply to get indications that they do not actually assume their map is the territory, so you're going to get the impression that "most people" superficially think this way. In our day to day lives, we pretty much have to operate as if our maps of the territory are the territory. Consequently, in everyday conversation we're going to talk about things like our map is the territory. I do this all the time, even though I don't actually think my map is the territory. You have to engage me in a deeper philosophical conversation for that to come out. Just something to keep in mind.

Good point but I was actually talking about the people I encounter in close religious/philosophical discussions. The people in real life just screw up their noses and begin to edge away from me when I start asking if they really know what they think they know.

It hasn't even occurred to most of them to question stuff like that.

 

[idav]

If one holds a belief about something that is not true then would it follow that their understanding of it is also not true?

You can have a good understanding of things that are untrue.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

You can have a good understanding of things that are untrue.

And you can have an untrue understanding of good things.

This language thing can get complicated.

 

[Jeremiah]

And you can have an untrue understanding of good things.

This language thing can get complicated.

"This language thing can get complicated."

And if not we can make it complicated!!! Woot! : hamster :

 

[sojourner]

If one holds a belief about something that is not true then would it follow that their understanding of it is also not true?

What do you mean? That the belief is untrue, or that the "something" is not true?:sarcastic