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trinity, godhead, or neither

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Aqualung, Aug 24, 2005.

  1. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    So essentially you're refusing to debate a person who uses extra books, even though she is getting most of what she is arguing only from the Bible? Weird. I don't she has ever even mentioned our other three books once.
     
  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    She didn't. I brought it up because I knew where she was headed. Once the subject of what God is made up of came into play, and became the primary focus of the line of questioning, it's time to shut down. I only like to debate what IS in the AV, not what ISN'T.

    Once pulled "outside the Book" --- a KJV debater gets what he deserves.
     
  3. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Well, I still don't see why you're having such a problem. If you debate, and she thinks up good, Biblical evidence of what he is made of, and you do the same, don't you think it would be a good debate?

    If you know where she is headed, why not take her on and show her why she is wrong?
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    AV,

    I must admit you had me fooled. I had assumed you actually wanted to debate and could do so without getting flustered. When I nominated you for the "Kindness Award," it was because I genuinely believed you to be the kind of person I could discuss differences in doctrine with and maybe actually learn something from. I have had more discussions on the doctrine of the Trinity over the years than you can imagine. None of them has gone anywhere but around in circles. Somehow I thought that a discussion with you might be different. I based my assumption on how well you conducted yourself when your beliefs on the creation were ridiculed by so many other posters. I thought that if anyone could continue to be as patient as you were with people who were downright rude to you, you would probably be at least as patient with someone who wanted to be able to understand what is obviously a very complex doctrine. Apparently I was wrong.

    By the way, I know perfectly well what "substance" God is made of. And it's not ectoplasm! We are created in His image, after His likeness. His Son, Jesus Christ, is also in His image. (In case you weren't aware, His Son was in the image of a human being, which would be an important clue as to what the Father's image was.) Adam had a son, Seth, who was in his image and likeness, as well. You see, both willing and able to argue my position. If you can't do the same, it's hardly anything to lose patience with me over.

    Oh, get real! There's not one person on this forum who isn't trying to do the same thing -- including you. That's what debate is all about -- declaring a position and then providing evidence to substantiate it. I don't need you as a channel for anything, my friend. I am simply pointing out the problems inherent in the doctrine of the Trinity (which is derived from the creeds and not from the Bible). You have been unable to argue your position as well as I have been able to argue mine, and have consequently decided to make unfounded accusations as to my motives.

    Nor with me. I never said anything about believing that Adam and Eve coming to Earth from another planet. Neither did DeepShadow or Aqualung or jonny or emmaleebee or SoyLeche. We never said anything like that because we don't believe anything like that. That is purely anti-Mormon propoganda. I thought you were above that, AV.

    You haven't even given me any evidence that the Bible is the sole record of God's word. You provided one verse that was supposedly supposed to convince me, and from it, claimed that "scripture," being "perfect" was to replace everything else.

    Really. Well, you could fool me. (Actually, for awhile you did.)

    Hey, not one question mark. (I re-read my post twice, just to make sure.) But, as far as I'm concerned, it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference anyway. You don't answer my questions when I do ask them.

    No problem. I know where you're coming from now. Believe me, I know how hard it must be for someone like you to debate a Latter-day Saint. I'm sorry you felt threatened. I'll back off.

    Kathryn

    P.S. I never used any evidence from any source other than the KJV. I don't know why you accused me of having done so.
     
  5. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    First of all, I have NO problems with my Bible. I'm not sure you've read all of our posts. I simply said that 1 John 5:17 supports the Godhead, and she disagrees. Then she wants ME to show HER how 1 John 5:17 doesn't support the Godhead (after I said it does) by, of all things, bringing up some kind of substance that isn't even on the Periodic Table.

    I would have given her much more debate if she would have just started out by saying something like:

    AV, the Bible says they are made up of [...], and here are the verses to support that: yada, yada.

    But I suspect she wasn't, as she can't give me verses in the AV, thus the use of leading questions.

    Absolutely not. I'm used to Mormon subterfuge - cloaked as leading questions. If you want to spout Mormon doctrine ... say it clearly. I hate lengthy, chatty, debates; as the margin of error in quotation increases as the number of posts increase. As does the potential to veer off onto side issues.
     
  6. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Name it then, please --- from the Periodic Table.

    I say Adam and Eve are Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, and Oxygen.

    Are you saying God is the same thing???
     
  7. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Please do not refer to anyone's debating as 'subterfuge'. Everyone has just as much right to discuss things as the other person.
     
  8. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Okay, thank you. I withdraw the comment then.
     
  9. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Yes. I think she is. Why is that so hard to beleive, especially when you take into account the fact that adam and eve were made in his likeness, the fact Gen 32:30 has Jacob saying that he saw god face to face, or these verses which have him having a physical, human body: Ex 24:10; 31:18; 33:11; 33:23; Num 12:8 etc.
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Excuse me, but 1 John 5:17 says, "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."

    I suspect you meant 1 John 5:7. I never once denied that this verse supports the Godhead. You are out of line to accuse me of that. What I said was that it does not support the Trinitarian belief that the Father and the Son are "one in substance." It says only that they are "one." When I asked you the way in which they are "one," you declined to answer.

    I don't really think you can very well accuse me of "bringing up some kind of substance that isn't even on the Periodic Table, when (on another thread) you said the following:

    Leading questions generally elicit intelligent responses... at least from someone who has something of value to contribute.

    That was uncalled for. I am not "spouting" anything. I am merely demonstrating that my beliefs are grounded in the scriptures. It appears as if you are attempting to do the same thing. The main difference is that I appear to be doing so more effectively. :D

    Kathryn
     
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  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    (Oh, you can ask questions of me; I just can't ask questions of you. What a strange sort of debate this is turning out to be!)

    Sorry, chemistry was never my strongest subject. I hope you'll forgive me for not describing God's chemical composition. I believe that He is a glorified, immortal celestial being -- just like the Jesus Christ, who sits on His right hand side. (Of course, if you believe they are one and the same, and if you don't believe that God doesn't have a physical form at all, this can be probematic.)
     
  12. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    :biglaugh:
     
  13. Sooperhotshiz

    Sooperhotshiz New Member

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    It is fairly difficult to tell without opinion. Some of the best unitarian arguments against the Trinity I have heard from Jehovahs Witenesses, I have seen large debates. From the NT alone, I wouldn't have a clue how exactly to define the Holy Spirit. Something that endwells people, makes them one body? With Christ, several times he has shown to be god-like, several he has shown not to be. I would have to say that the NT is fairly unclear about this and arguments can be made on both ends. In my opinion though, there is no trinity in the NT.
     
  14. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    1 John 4:7 says FOR THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE.

    When Jesus used these same words (are one) in John 10:30, they attempted to stone Him for claiming to be God.

    John 3:16 = ...ONLY BEGOTTEN SON...
    • This means that Jesus was God, since an animal begets an animal, a human begets a human, God begets God
    • Jesus referred to God as His Father, yet Matthew makes it clear that the Holy Ghost is His Father - (Matthew 1:20)
    Paul says in Colossians 2:9, speaking of Jesus: FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY.

    The Bible indeed supports the Godhead.
     
  15. Sooperhotshiz

    Sooperhotshiz New Member

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    1 John 4:7 does not, “
    7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.”

    Mark 10:17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.”


    I use a dictionary to define words, not opinion.

    All born again Chrisitans are reborn with the holy spirit, sometimes it is difficult to define what the holy spirit exactly is. In your opinion, it is obviously God.


    You are using a minority in translation.


    9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him
    It is saying that when Christ died, all sins were forgiven, are now in him, and transitioned previous laws from the psysical into the spiritual.
     
  16. Jensen

    Jensen Active Member

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    There are many that are called gods, but that doesn't mean they are real gods. Even man is called gods in the Psalms.

    "For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me" (Isaiah 46:9).

    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deuteronomy 6:4).


    Exodus 6

    3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. KJV

    His name is YHWH, Jesus is the Son.
    Mark 15:

    34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Therefore Jesus is not God.
    John 17:3,

    3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. NASB

    ...that they may know you, the only true God...the actual words of Jesus saying another is God.

    Ephesians 1

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    "... we know ... that there is no God but one" (I Corinthians 8:4).

    "yet for us there is one God, the Father , from whom are all things" (I Corinthians 8:6).

    "there is ... one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all" (Ephesians 4:6).

    one God and Father.... one God and Father of Jesus.


    Jesus said that he is the Son:

    John 10

    31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

    32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

    33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

    36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    Luke 22:70,71,NASB,
    70 And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."
    71 Then they said, "What further need do we have of testimony? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth."

    In verse 36 he says he is the Son, and also he says "Yes, I am" when asked if he is the Son of God.

    Also I did not say that he was a "mere" messenger....giving the impression that I said something other than I did.

    Jesus was many things, and messenger was one of them.

    I must admit that this belief that there are many gods is new to me...I didn't know that anyone believed that. The many gods and false gods spoken of in the bible are not literal actual living gods, (some are idols )but the imaginations in the minds of men who believe other than what God Almighty states in the bible, that he is the only God.

    Also I wish to say that this thread is an interesting subject, but I've been through this discussion so many times for several years now on other message boards, so therefore I see little point in going into it all over again, so I will be bowing out. Hope that you all have a fullfilling and rewarding discussion that is a learning experience...God bless..

    Jensen:bounce
     
  17. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Just because there are other, real gods does not mean that they are worthy of our worship. If there is another god, and he created some other world, what is that to us? We only have one God, who was our creator and is our Lord. What does it matter if there are other gods? We only have one worthy of our worship.

    wow. Sorry my threads aren't up to your standards, and sorry I don't visit all the same forums as you. Next time, I'll be sure to ask you before I start a thread so you won't be as bored.
     
  18. Jensen

    Jensen Active Member

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    Wow! Where did you get all that from what I said? My goodness what is the matter with you? I said the subject is interesting but that I was bowing out as I've been over this topic so many times before...I never said that your threads aren't up to my standards, or that you should visit the same forums as I do, nor did I imply that you ask me before starting a thread....nor did I say that I was bored. Please do not misrepresent what I did say .


    God bless, take care, happy discussing.

    Jensen
     
  19. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Well, I don't know. That seemed to me like saying that this thread was boring. Perhaps I misinterpreted it, but I don't really know how else I could have seen that.
    It really seems like you said the opposite.
     
  20. Jensen

    Jensen Active Member

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    If I thought the thread was boring...I'd have said that. What I said is below, and I definitely said that "this thread is an interesting subject.." If you wish to mis-read something go right ahead...or read it as you wish, but don't say that I said or meant something that I did not. God bless...

    In Jesus' love,

    Jensen

    .....................................................................................................


    "Also I wish to say that this thread is an interesting subject, but I've been through this discussion so many times for several years now on other message boards, so therefore I see little point in going into it all over again, so I will be bowing out. Hope that you all have a fullfilling and rewarding discussion that is a learning experience...God bless.."

    Jensen:bounce
     
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