Transgender rights in your religion/philosophy

[Harel13]

Nobody is more objective about their gender than a trans person. A trans woman is objectively a woman, a trans man is objectively a man. Nobody is fighting harder for this truth to be accepted as objective than transgender people are

How do transgender people define objectivity in gender?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

How do transgender people define objectivity in gender?

It needn't be any more complicated than "I am objectively female" or "I am objectively male". There needn't be any further definition required on an individual basis than that. If a person can be said to stating their gender objectively, then said person can be said to be objectively that gender.

 

[Harel13]

It needn't be any more complicated than "I am objectively female" or "I am objectively male". There needn't be any further definition required on an individual basis than that. If a person can be said to stating their gender objectively, then said person can be said to be objectively that gender.

Doesn't lacking a definition mean that something is completely subjective?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Doesn't lacking a definition mean that something is completely subjective?

Not if you define it as a personal association. For example, you could say that the definition of "male" is "an individual who associates themselves with the social and cultural identity of being male". I mean, this is already pretty-much literally the definition of the term.

What other definition do you think would work?

 

[Harel13]

Not if you define it as a personal association. For example, you could say that the definition of "male" is "an individual who associates themselves with the social and cultural identity of being male". I mean, this is already pretty-much literally the definition of the term.

But then, what does 'male' even mean?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

But then, what does 'male' even mean?

What has it ever meant? What definition do you think makes more sense?

 

[wellwisher]

But then, what does 'male' even mean?

Maybe we need to ask science for the definition, since they pride themselves on being objective; philosophy of science, and not political, biased, subjective and agenda driven.

In organisms that reproduce sexually, male is defined as being realize to the gamete that is smaller and more motile than the other corresponding gamete of the same species (the female gamete). The sperm cells of higher animals and plants are male gametes.

Males transfer their DNA through the sperm, which are the smaller of the two gamete cells. A transgender person, if taken to the limits of surgery and hormone treatment, cannot produce either gamete cell, is therefore neither male or female. They are a social construct based on irrationality and profit margin. Medical mechanics will oversell to make profit.

 

[Harel13]

What has it ever meant? What definition do you think makes more sense?

I use a certain definition for male and female, but I'm interested in hearing an explanation as to how transgender people define themselves objectively as either.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

How does your religion/secular philosophy view the right of transgender people to identify as a different gender from their natal sex?

This topic has been brought to my mind by recent discussions - both in national and devolved parliaments as well as the press - regarding proposed reforms to the Gender Recognition Act 2004 here in Britain (which were supported by both former Prime Minister Theresa May and the current Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon).

The reforms, if successfully implemented, would make it easier for transpeople to legally change gender by making the process less reliant on medical examination, and removing a lot of the bureaucratic red tape that many trans men and women find intrusive. This would involve the right of 'self-declaration' without the need for psychiatric report.

While similar transgender reforms have already taken place in many Western countries (i.e. Norway, Republic of Ireland, Denmark and Norway, Malta, Portugal, Belgium and Canada), the GRA reform agenda in Britain is facing grave backlash from politicians and newspapers, both on the right and the left.

The UK is famous - or indeed, infamous depending on your pov - for having an extremely vocal, well-organised and powerful lobby of so-called 'trans-exclusionary radical feminists' (as their opponents label them), most of whom are intellectually of the 1970s 'second wave feminism' and have never embraced the 'intersectional' third and fourth wave feminism that is normative/mainstream in the United States, Canada, South America and continental Europe.

Because they believe that 'sex' is an immutable biological reality but that 'gender' is socially constructed - and because they also, applying Marxist class analysis and materialist dialectic to sex, regard 'men' (entirely) as a "sex/gender class" that oppresses all women through 'patriarchy' - this sub-school of feminists refuses to regard transwomen as their legally acquired gender.

An example would be the English feminist (and former lesbian-separatist) Julie Bindel:


JULIE BINDEL: Like JK Rowling, I was trolled just for daring to speak my mind on trans issues | Daily Mail Online

"I was one of the very first feminists to speak out against extreme transgender ideology, in an opinion piece back in 2004."​

Trans-exclusionary radical feminism - RationalWiki

Julie Bindel is a prominent feminist writer, including many years for The Guardian. However she has been attacked for her hostility to trans people, with CL Minou accusing her of "dangerous transphobia" that denies trans women their bodily autonomy and ignores misogyny against trans women​

The issue has caused a serious rift in the feminist movement on both sides of the Atlantic (and Irish Sea/continental Europe), with British feminists largely being 'trans-exclusionary' whereas feminists from other Western countries are 'trans-inclusionary':


Opinion | How British Feminism Became Anti-Trans

Why is British media so transphobic?


So serious, actually, that Irish feminist organisations have sent a warning to their British counterparts:


"Stay away from Ireland," British anti-trans feminists told | IrishCentral.com

Irish feminists have hit out at a group of British trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs) who have organized a meeting in Ireland as part of their campaign to oppose Britain’s proposed Gender Recognition Act (GRA).

The proposed GRA would end the requirement that trans people obtain a doctor's diagnosis before they can officially change their gender. In 2015, Ireland passed a similar act that allows self-identification - namely gives an individual the right to change their gender and apply for a new birth certificate without medical treatment.

At the time Ireland was hailed by Human Rights Watch as a “global transgender leader” but as the British Government considers whether to pass similar legislation, TERFs have decried what they view as the abolition of gender.

A number of Irish feminists have penned an open letter to the group which touches on trans rights and Ireland's experience of colonialism.

“Trans people and particularly trans women,” they write, “are an inextricable part of our feminist community. The needs of trans people are part of our campaigns. There is no difference between ‘feminists’ spreading transphobic and transmisogynist ideas or spreading racism or homophobia. We want no part of it, and we don’t want it here.”

They also hit out at what they labelled the indifference of the British feminist movement to Irish feminists campaigns.

“Do you have any kind of concept of what a feminism in a country shaped by struggle against Empire looks like?... We have had enough of colonialism in Ireland without needing more of it from you.

“We neither want nor need your lecture tour. You’re not welcome here,” they conclude.
​

So how do you personally look upon the issue?

Personally, I see most of the liberals promoting LGBT issues as hypocrites. Most of them voted for Hillary, who rather than trying to protect LGBT ppl after a Pulse nightclub massacre by having ppl able to defend themselves, decided she would disarm the victims. Moreover, they usually have decided the church hates them so they turn against the church. I live in a small town, that is mostly conservative. Honestly, I've noticed that the biggest racists and sexists (and tbh transphobes, since they attack you if you think differently) are liberal. I got banned from this forum https://rpgmaker.net/ after I basically told them during a so-called "rainbow of positivity" that no in fact the last 10 years was not "especially hard for LGBT ppl". That everyone including my church and my bank is okay with me being genderfluid. That 15 or 20 years ago, hate crimes were way more of a thing. Four or five people bullied me, before the mod herself said nasty things then banned me. The fact is, I don't see the church as particularly against LGBT ppl to start with. On the other hand, big cities, I have seen a lot more persecution (from crappy living situations in apartments to basically finding no work despite applying everywhere).

So I guess to answer your question, it does just fine.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I use a certain definition for male and female, but I'm interested in hearing an explanation as to how transgender people define themselves objectively as either.

Could you provide your definition, or a definition which would in some way go beyond mere association?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Personally, I see most of the liberals promoting LGBT issues as hypocrites. Most of them voted for Hillary, who rather than trying to protect LGBT ppl after a Pulse nightclub massacre by having ppl able to defend themselves, decided she would disarm the victims.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. That's like arguing that anybody who is pro-gambling and pro-gun ownership is a hypocrite, because they support arming the guy who shot 50 people dead in Las Vegas.

That's nonsense logic.

Moreover, they usually have decided the church hates them so they turn against the church.

Almost all liberal politicians in the US are Christian.

I live in a small town, that is mostly conservative. Honestly, I've noticed that the biggest racists and sexists (and tbh transphobes, since they attack you if you think differently) are liberal.

Any actual evidence of this? Because, to me, it just sounds like cognitive bias.

 

[Harel13]

Could you provide your definition, or a definition which would in some way go beyond mere association?

I use the biological definition: Males are humans that have xy chromosomes. Based on this, they have certain bodily features: male genatalia, male reproductive system and male hormonal balance.
Females are humans that have xx chromosomes, etc.

And how do transgender people define male and female?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I use the biological definition: Males are humans that have xy chromosomes. Based on this, they have certain bodily features: male genatalia, male reproductive system and male hormonal balance.
Females are humans that have xx chromosomes, etc.

If that's the case, how do you define gender as different to sex, and how do you know whether to refer to someone as male or female without looking at their genitalia or chromosomes?

And how do transgender people define male and female?

Generally, the way it is defined in the dictionary as an association, like how I have defined it. There is nuance and some difference in the details, but in general that's the umbrella definition.

 

[Estro Felino]

I use the biological definition: Males are humans that have xy chromosomes. Based on this, they have certain bodily features: male genatalia, male reproductive system and male hormonal balance.
Females are humans that have xx chromosomes, etc.

And how do transgender people define male and female?

There can be philosophical, religious, or juridic criteria that define male or female.

Juridically, and speaking for example of my country (Italy), a biological male who intends to be considered juridically female, has to 1) undergo psychological treatment 2) undergo hormone replacement therapy 3) undergo sex reassignment surgery, authorized by the local Courthouse with inappealable judgement.

After 3) the local Courthouse will order the local anagraphical offices to change the gender of the person in the documents.

Art 31, law 150/2011
Source

 

[Harel13]

If that's the case, how do you define gender as different to sex

I never said I did.

how do you know whether to refer to someone as male or female without looking at their genitalia or chromosomes?

It used to be easier. The definition I gave also made most people look a certain way. With operations, today any thing's possible in terms of outward appearance.

Now, I'm still patiently waiting for a transgender person's objective definition of the terms 'male' and 'female'. I really am honestly interested in an answer.

 

[Harel13]

There can be philosophical, religious, or juridic criteria that define male or female

The possibility of differences in definition depending on the context does not sound objective...

 

[Estro Felino]

The possibility of differences in definition depending on the context does not sound objective...

Because there is no objectivity in such matters.

The law considers absolutely vital to preserve anyone's liberties and freedoms.

After all...we are all genetically different, even science says that.
Believing that all born males are males is believing in Creationism.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I never said I did.

So why use the term at all, when it clearly has a distinct meaning from sex? Why not just talk exclusively about sex?

It used to be easier. The definition I gave also made most people look a certain way. With operations, today any thing's possible in terms of outward appearance.

That's not really an answer to my question. Since your definition of male and female ONLY mentions genes or sexual organs, the actual APPEARANCE somebody has is immaterial. With that being considered, how do you consider anyone male or female without personally investigating their sexual organs or chromosomes?

Now, I'm still patiently waiting for a transgender person's objective definition of the terms 'male' and 'female'. I really am honestly interested in an answer.

I've already provided it.

 

[shmogie]

In America, there are no transgender rights, there are only rights that apply to all citizens.

A citizen may choose to have themselves sliced and diced, they may pretend that they are a different sex from the sex they actually are.

The have the liberty to do these things, it is their life.

It is extremely rare for me to agree with skwim, but I do here. Live and let live.

 

[Harel13]

So why use the term at all, when it clearly has a distinct meaning from sex? Why not just talk exclusively about sex?

I wasn't asking you to get into a debate, I was asking because what you wrote about your transgender friends was intriguing and I wanted/want more info. I was raised knowing that those two words had the same meaning, but nowadays people have changed the meaning of gender. Okay, so what's an objective definition of gender?

That's not really an answer to my question. Since your definition of male and female ONLY mentions genes or sexual organs, the actual APPEARANCE somebody has is immaterial. With that being considered, how do you consider anyone male or female without personally investigating their sexual organs or chromosomes?

Very well. I'll update my definition: based on either the xy chromosomes or xx chromosomes, a male or female will naturally have certain looks depending on their biological definition.

I've already provided it

You wrote something along "what the dictionary says". I'd appreciate you posting that definition here.