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Today's modern Pharisees..

outhouse

Atheistically
To stereotype the Pharisees is simply wrong, as Jesus, Paul, and probably the other apostles were working from a Pharisee paradigm.

There is no credible connection to Jesus or any Galilean follower as to being a Pharisee.

Pauls Judaism is highly debated, and his claim to a Pharisee could very well be rhetorical in nature.

What we read in the gospels is essentially an internal argument amongst Pharisees,

No it was an attack on them as a whole.


Now you are correct there were divisions in the Pharisees between Hellenism and cultural Judaism, but we have zero evidence a side of this group was favored by any gospel author, that is your unsubstantiated speculation.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
If you find no authority in it, why then are you on a religious forum site? Or...is your reason for being here to deny all spirituality? If so, that's completely fine with me.

That said, I give the name to the modern day equivalent of how the Pharisees are described in Scripture.
Christianity isn't the only religion on earth. Most religions find no authority in your Bible.
 

aaglaas

Member
There is no credible connection to Jesus or any Galilean follower as to being a Pharisee.

Pauls Judaism is highly debated, and his claim to a Pharisee could very well be rhetorical in nature.



No it was an attack on them as a whole.


Now you are correct there were divisions in the Pharisees between Hellenism and cultural Judaism, but we have zero evidence a side of this group was favored by any gospel author, that is your unsubstantiated speculation.

Hi outhouse, please point out to me where I anywhere said or implied that this group was 'favored' by any gospel author, or that Jesus or his followers were Pharisees. I must admit, I'm completely unaware of having stated any such thing.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Hi Tarheeler, you misunderstand me. I completely agree with you.
I don't see how I misunderstood you. It was pretty clear:

Do I deny the events as described in a text which I find has no authority? I have no opinion about the historicity of the events. I wasn't there. But since I deny the authority of the text that retells them...

And what people do today to gay people is its own entity. Why give it the name which developed as a technical title for specific people in the Jewish community?

If you find no authority in it, why then are you on a religious forum site? Or...is your reason for being here to deny all spirituality? If so, that's completely fine with me.

That said, I give the name to the modern day equivalent of how the Pharisees are described in Scripture.

rosends stated that he doesn't give the Christian Bible any authority. And you asked him why he was a religious site if he didn't.
 

aaglaas

Member
I don't see how I misunderstood you. It was pretty clear:



rosends stated that he doesn't give the Christian Bible any authority. And you asked him why he was a religious site if he didn't.

Good point. You misunderstood me as in thinking that I only believe that Christianity is the only way to a spiritual life, or that the Bible is the only holy book in the world worth studying. That said, I understood that he was defending the Pharisees, or had a different knowledge or view of them, and so was asking where he is or was coming from on that subject.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
Hi Tarheeler, you misunderstand me. I completely agree with you.

You are running into objections from Jewish posters here because the Pharisees are the forerunners of rabbinical Judaism, or as we call it today, Judaism. They are attacked in the gospels because the early Christian community was in conflict with the Jewish community of the day, a generation after the assumed execution of Jesus.

So Jesus is executed say 30 c.e. Around 80 c.e. or so, when the first gospels start to be written, there are conflicts within the Jewish community, with the group known as "Christians" increasingly identified as unacceptably heretical for rejecting the Torah and embracing a false messiah. The gospels almost certainly reflect simply one side of the dispute, and have almost nothing to do with what happened at the time of Jesus' ministry. Many Jews find the Christian use of "Pharisee" as a description of a self-righteous hypocrite to be insulting.

You are simply talking past one another.
 

aaglaas

Member
You are running into objections from Jewish posters here because the Pharisees are the forerunners of rabbinical Judaism, or as we call it today, Judaism. They are attacked in the gospels because the early Christian community was in conflict with the Jewish community of the day, a generation after the assumed execution of Jesus.

So Jesus is executed say 30 c.e. Around 80 c.e. or so, when the first gospels start to be written, there are conflicts within the Jewish community, with the group known as "Christians" increasingly identified as unacceptably heretical for rejecting the Torah and embracing a false messiah. The gospels almost certainly reflect simply one side of the dispute, and have almost nothing to do with what happened at the time of Jesus' ministry. Many Jews find the Christian use of "Pharisee" as a description of a self-righteous hypocrite to be insulting.

You are simply talking past one another.

Hi gsaseeker, you make an excellent point. I must admit, I have no knowledge of the Pharisees other than how fellow Jewish members who followed Jesus at the time described them. Do you then deny that they plotted to murder Jesus?
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Good point. You misunderstood me as in thinking that I only believe that Christianity is the only way to a spiritual life, or that the Bible is the only holy book in the world worth studying. That said, I understood that he was defending the Pharisees, or had a different knowledge or view of them, and so was asking where he is or was coming from on that subject.
That's not what I thought, and that isn't what you were asking.

But that's ok.
 

aaglaas

Member
I don't see how I misunderstood you. It was pretty clear:



rosends stated that he doesn't give the Christian Bible any authority. And you asked him why he was a religious site if he didn't.

Hi Tarheeler, then rosends should have answered me himself. That said, thank you for clarifying for him or her, and point taken.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
Do you then deny that they plotted to murder Jesus?

Yes. Assuming Jesus was executed, he was executed by the Romans. I'm sure that the ruling elite didn't particularly care for someone who may have led a temple insurrection either, but he his execution was almost certainly of Roman origin.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Hi outhouse, please point out to me where I anywhere said or implied that this group was 'favored' by any gospel author, or that Jesus or his followers were Pharisees. I must admit, I'm completely unaware of having stated any such thing.

My reply was not to you.

It was to metis.
 

Baladas

An Págánach
If you wanted to discuss this with primarily Christians, you should have probably posted in Same Faith Debates.

That said, I do understand where you are coming from. I do agree that many Christians today are hypocritical and narrow-minded. Not all by any means, but many.
As a former Christian of many years, I am familiar with the reference to the Pharisees.

As a side-note: It is very cool to know that there are Pharisees on this site. I've been increasingly amazed and frustrated at how inaccurate a picture of Judaism I have been given. Despite all of my theological studies in Christianity, I am fairly ignorant of your faith.
 

aaglaas

Member
Yes. Assuming Jesus was executed, he was executed by the Romans. I'm sure that the ruling elite didn't particularly care for someone who may have led a temple insurrection either, but he his execution was almost certainly of Roman origin.

Certainly it was Pontius Pilate, as representative of the Romans by virtue of being governor of Judea, who formally ordered the execution.

However, we will have to agree to disagree that it was not the Pharisees, priests, and scribes who originally conspired to have him murdered.

Luke 22:1-6

Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people.

Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude.


Luke 23:1-25

Then the whole multitude of them arose and led Him to Pilate. And they began to accuse Him, saying, “We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is Christ, a King.” Then Pilate asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?”

He answered him and said, “It is as you say.”

So Pilate said to the chief priests and the crowd, “I find no fault in this Man.” But they were the more fierce, saying, “He stirs up the people, teaching throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee to this place.” When Pilate heard of Galilee, he asked if the Man were a Galilean. And as soon as he knew that He belonged to Herod’s jurisdiction, he sent Him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time.

Now when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceedingly glad; for he had desired for a long time to see Him, because he had heard many things about Him, and he hoped to see some miracle done by Him. Then he questioned Him with many words, but He answered him nothing. And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused Him. Then Herod, with his men of war, treated Him with contempt and mocked Him, arrayed Him in a gorgeous robe, and sent Him back to Pilate. That very day Pilate and Herod became friends with each other, for previously they had been at enmity with each other.

Then Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests, the rulers, and the people, said to them, “You have brought this Man to me, as one who misleads the people. And indeed, having examined Him in your presence, I have found no fault in this Man concerning those things of which you accuse Him; no, neither did Herod, for I sent you back to him; and indeed nothing deserving of death has been done by Him. I will therefore chastise Him and release Him” (for it was necessary for him to release one to them at the feast).

And they all cried out at once, saying, “Away with this Man, and release to us Barabbas”— who had been thrown into prison for a certain rebellion made in the city, and for murder.

Pilate, therefore, wishing to release Jesus, again called out to them. But they shouted, saying, “Crucify Him, crucify Him!”
 

aaglaas

Member
If you wanted to discuss this with primarily Christians, you should have probably posted in Same Faith Debates.

That said, I do understand where you are coming from. I do agree that many Christians today are hypocritical and narrow-minded. Not all by any means, but many.
As a former Christian of many years, I am familiar with the reference to the Pharisees.

As a side-note: It is very cool to know that there are Pharisees on this site. I've been increasingly amazed and frustrated at how inaccurate a picture of Judaism I have been given. Despite all of my theological studies in Christianity, I am fairly ignorant of your faith.

Hi seekingtruth. I am totally fine discussing this with a person of any faith, or none. I simply would like to know where they're coming from when doing so.
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
Ah yes! Now I remember why at first I did not comment. Modern Pharisees see words and then think they know what the words mean for real and they teach it to others their way. But truth should be God's way I think. People who say "my explanation is the right one and it is for everyone to obey" are Pharisees.

Like most posters in forums...LOL LOL
 

Baladas

An Págánach
Hi seekingtruth. I am totally fine discussing this with a person of any faith, or none. I simply would like to know where they're coming from when doing so.

Well, that's good. I wasn't trying to be confrontational, it's just that many non-Christians don't consider the Bible to be the inerrant word of God and will argue accordingly.

Oh, I am a philosophical Taoist. Nice to meet you. :)
 
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