To exist, Islam requires a worldly enemy?

[142857]

I suggest that Islam can not exist without the infidel.
If all the world was muslim, the Koran would be undermined, if only 51% were muslim, the 'truth' of the koran would crumble.
From what I gather, the Koran tells me flat out that "most" of mankind will burn in hell. It tells me that God will guide whom he will and mislead whom he pleases.
It seems to me that god needs to burn most of us and would like to save a few. It seems that it has already been decreed, thus, must come to pass.
The Koran tells me, that "most men will not believe". It explains the people of the right hand and the people of the left hand, and those formost on the earth. It tells of "those who shall be lost" and of "those who shall be saved"
It seems to me that without the Infidel to fulfill gods word, the latter day cannot come.
It would seem that Islam needs the infidel, and without him, would cease to exist.
I realize we all have a choice....god realizes that most of us will make the wrong one. Do we make the wrong choice because he turned Eblis loose on us? Is it satan that steers us off course? If all the leading and misleading is done by god? Has god stacked the proverbial deck against us? Why would god make us and make us believe he wants to save us, if really, he intends to burn moast of us?
I contend that, if that's really the plan, then obviously god needs a human fire for some reason or another.
Perhaps human souls are his spaceship fule.

 

[.lava]

God does not want to people to enter hell; that's why there is Qur'an. even if it wanted to burn humans, it could just do it because there is no authority over God. God choses the one who choses him. the point is human need to chose God first to be chosen by God.

it is funny to say Islam needs infidels. for one, concept of infidel does not refer to a 'non-Muslim' person. for two, there is duality. of course there would always be opposites and diversity

.

 

[142857]

If a muslim is by definition a believer.....then yes, an infidel is a non believer.

God IS just doing it, in a long drawn out manner.

Imagine the day of resurection as described in the koran, picture it from the outside, like a movie, look at it all, imagine what the whole scene is.
If this day comes as described....MOST men are destined to the fire.

Yes we have holy books and choice individually....but as a whole we are predestined to "mostly" walk the wrong path.

 

[islam means peace]

From what I gather, the Koran tells me flat out that "most" of mankind will burn in hell. It tells me that God will guide whom he will and mislead whom he pleases.

You are right but your knowlege is incomplete , that make you statement incomplet , yes, it only Allah who can give guidence and mislead too but who willl Allah misguide those who donot want to listen to the words of Allah and do bad thing , and those who want to have guidence Allah will inshahallah give guidence to you.

Allah has given power to men , if they want guidence Allah will inshahallah surely give him to that and Allah will never ever punish some one for unjust.
So its duty of us to try to search for guidence and Allah will provide us that to us , if some body donot want guidence then its his personal mistake.

It seems to me that god needs to burn most of us and would like to save a few. It seems that it has already been decreed, thus, must come to pass.
The Koran tells me, that "most men will not believe". It explains the people of the right hand and the people of the left hand, and those formost on the earth. It tells of "those who shall be lost" and of "those who shall be saved"
It seems to me that without the Infidel to fulfill gods word, the latter day cannot come.

Yes quran says that many of the men not believe , its a prediction , Allah is our Lord he know each and every thing so he knows already that many people wont believe , one thing i try to explain which many people argue that why people burn in hell if its was already written , the answer i got from scholars is
"it written becasue Allah know what people will do and not people do that becasue its written"

I realize we all have a choice....god realizes that most of us will make the wrong one. Do we make the wrong choice because he turned Eblis loose on us? Is it satan that steers us off course? If all the leading and misleading is done by god? Has god stacked the proverbial deck against us? Why would god make us and make us believe he wants to save us, if really, he intends to burn moast of us?
I contend that, if that's really the plan, then obviously god needs a human fire for some reason or another.
Perhaps human souls are his spaceship fule.

One thing you know about ibless , he cannot force you , the only thing he can do is put thinking in your mind , if i write here something bad and if you follow that its your fault because i just put thinking and i cannot force you to do that, similary shatan can only give thinking in your mind and Allah has given powers to men whether to follow it or not?

 

[142857]

What I'm actually saying is that:
If everybody on earth became a god fearing muslim right this very moment it would negate the words of the holy Koran.
With no enemy to fight, there is no Islam.

 

[A-ManESL]

You are wrong in saying that those who arent Muslims will be punished by God.

Those who believe and those who are Jews, Christians and Sabeans,[in fact] anyone who believes in God and the Last Day, and acts honorably will receive their earnings from their Lord: no fear will lieupon them nor need they feel saddened.-Quran 2:62


[But] they are not all alike: among the followers of earlier revelation there are upright people, who recite God's messages throughout the night, and prostrate themselves [before Him]. They believe in God and the Last Day, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong, and vie with one another in doing good works: and these are among the righteous.-Quran 3:113-114


Nonetheless, those who believe in- the prophets who dated for back in the past and those who profess Judaism and the various sects of the Sabeites and of the Sabaeans and the Christians and those who fall in line with the prophet Muhammad; whoever believes in God, and acknowledges the truth of Resurrection and Judgement and imprints his deeds with wisdom and piety, shall Heaven reward them for their homage thereto, and no fear nor dread shall fall upon them nor shall they come to grief.-Quran 5:69

Further, you are wrong in saying that all Muslims by definitions are believers.

The bedouin Arabs have said, "We are believers." Tell them, "You are not believers, but you should say that you are Muslims. In fact, belief has not yet entered your hearts. If you obey God and His Messenger, nothing will be reduced from your deeds. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.- Quran 49:14

I think you need to learn more about Islam yet.

Regards

 

[nameless]

Those who believe and those who are Jews, Christians and Sabeans,[in fact] anyone who believes in God and the Last Day, and acts honorably will receive their earnings from their Lord: no fear will lieupon them nor need they feel saddened.-Quran 2:62

A-ManESL,

here believers includes polytheists too?

 

[A-ManESL]

A-ManESL,

here believers includes polytheists too?

Who is a believer depends on how the person approaches the Reality the Quran refers to as God. It doesn't matter if (s)he falls in the category of polytheist/monotheist etc or whatever. These are (in my opinion) all artificial terms propogated by a superficial need to classify and segregate systems of thought that are actually united at the source. For example, Islam is said to be strictly monotheist. Yet there are pantheistic verses in the Quran(2:115, 57:3 etc), and moreover there is a verse 2:21 in the Quran, which some say, negates the idea of monotheism. I personally feel that these -theisms shouldnt be used at all to describe various religions because they dont present the correct picture.

Regards

 

[sindbad5]

allow me to say your criteria of judging Islam is very naive, actually you can apply same criteria on any religion and you'l get the same results. you multiplay by one my friend.

coming to the frist square of any religion debate: religion in essence is a matter of faith, not only a realization.

 

[142857]

allow me to say again....

if everybody became a believer.....that in it's self would prove the word of the koran to be incorrect.

 

[Mystical Sadhu]

That seems very true, 142857.

Every thought, every action, by oneself, any other being or object, and the Universe at large all have shape, and the shape of perpetually needing an enemy is, at least, inclusive of perpetuating bipolarity. -3 -2 -1 0 1+ 2+ 3+, etc.

By reshaping one's mind, back to the original roundness -- a morphic oval shape -- with maximum perimeters, one not only attains the Universe, and its originator, one also has access to all concepts, will know what's practical and what is not practical, and will witness the very inception of each and every being into this Universe and their culmination into delivering their individuation back into the Universe in an ever perpetual flow of bliss. Bipolarity is enemic to this bliss, inclusiveness, and respect and love for self and others. Such bipolarity runs amock throughout each of the Abrahamic religions, and other ideologies, including communism/marxism.

I suggest that Islam can not exist without the infidel.

 

[MathewJames]

allow me to say again....

if everybody became a believer.....that in it's self would prove the word of the koran to be incorrect.

What are the chances of everyone or more than 51% of the people being classified as beleivers.

 

[TJ73]

I always read scripture from a personal perspective. I see Allah as leaving a personal message for me. A means for me to best guide my life. I don't live in a spiritual bubble; I certainly see that God has laid a frame work for dealing with other individuals and living as a believeing community and living in a diverse society as well. There is nothing I have found untouched.
Islam needs nothing to exist save a person to exist and accept it. It is a paradigm regardless if anyone lives within its construct.
Do Muslims need an enemy(?), may, perhaps be question on the minds outside the paradigm that are concerned by the unfortunate prevailing image of Islam.
As I see here and every where, people have strong desire to debate and I am no different. Sometimes I just love to watch and read and listen to people debate about something I am passionate about. I sit there on the totaly biased edge of my seat just waiting for "my guy" to pown the other guy. I think to myself, I know "we're" right and "we'll" show the world they're wrong. I get so upset when I see people repeating incorrect information and portraying the words of GOD as incredible,false or even damaging.
When it comes to membership, no matter the faith identification, people have an innate desire for an enemy. We don't find the same thrill when we seek a mirror to reflect the beauty we see in ourselves, we like an opponent to hash out all the details. But really, it's only entertainment. Someone may wish to debate this as well, but I really see it as such.
So I think we enjoy an enemy. It's just an ugly human property. Having faith, seeking to better know, respect and grow to love God is a means to turn from seeking an enemy and look for the mirror on each others hearts. :camp:

 

[nameless]

Who is a believer depends on how the person approaches the Reality the Quran refers to as God. It doesn't matter if (s)he falls in the category of polytheist/monotheist etc or whatever. These are (in my opinion) all artificial terms propogated by a superficial need to classify and segregate systems of thought that are actually united at the source. For example, Islam is said to be strictly monotheist. Yet there are pantheistic verses in the Quran(2:115, 57:3 etc), and moreover there is a verse 2:21 in the Quran, which some say, negates the idea of monotheism. I personally feel that these -theisms shouldnt be used at all to describe various religions because they dont present the correct picture.

Regards

so can jesus be god according to quran? it is known that muhammad insisted on removal of idols of deities from the kaaba temple, which includes those of jesus and mary.

 

[A-ManESL]

so can jesus be god according to quran? it is known that muhammad insisted on removal of idols of deities from the kaaba temple, which includes those of jesus and mary.

I had forgotten about this thread! lol, it came up on Active topics or I would have missed it.

Anyway, I see Jesus Christ's(pbuh) role as analogous to Muhammad (pbuh) role, internally they had both achieved perfection in spiritual union with God. Hence as Imam Ghazali hinted, the union of Jesus(pbuh) with God should be concieved not at the level of essence, but at the level of ethics. Being totally in harmony with the metaphysical Reality (which Christians and Muslims call God) Jesus' own individuality has vanished and in effect, the spiritual union with God had been affected. This does not mean that Jesus(pbuh) was God in the sense that he is the epitome of the metaphysical Reality. Rather internally his individuality was in union with God, making himself as a personality nought and hence only God remaining in him. A similar spiritual union with God was achieved by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), who said, "I am ‘Arab without (the letter) ‘ayn, i.e., Rabb (meaning God), and I am Ahmad without (the letter) meem, i.e., Ahad (meaning Unity). Whoseover hath seen me, the same hath seen the truth."

There is no reason for me to compare whose "union with God" was greater, in fact, in my view the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) forbade such comparison when he said "Do not give me preference over the other prophets." (Bukhari Hadith).

Regards

 

[nameless]

I had forgotten about this thread! lol, it came up on Active topics or I would have missed it.

add subscribtion..

Anyway, I see Jesus Christ's(pbuh) role as analogous to Muhammad (pbuh) role, internally they had both achieved perfection in spiritual union with God. Hence as Imam Ghazali hinted, the union of Jesus(pbuh) with God should be concieved not at the level of essence, but at the level of ethics. Being totally in harmony with the metaphysical Reality (which Christians and Muslims call God) Jesus' own individuality has vanished and in effect, the spiritual union with God had been affected. This does not mean that Jesus(pbuh) was God in the sense that he is the epitome of the metaphysical Reality. Rather internally his individuality was in union with God, making himself as a personality nought and hence only God remaining in him. A similar spiritual union with God was achieved by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), who said, "I am ‘Arab without (the letter) ‘ayn, i.e., Rabb (meaning God), and I am Ahmad without (the letter) meem, i.e., Ahad (meaning Unity). Whoseover hath seen me, the same hath seen the truth."

There is no reason for me to compare whose "union with God" was greater, in fact, in my view the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) forbade such comparison when he said "Do not give me preference over the other prophets." (Bukhari Hadith).

Regards

A-ManESL,

so pls conclude.....
using idols to worship jesus as the only and true god is accepted in islam? kindly make it simple as possible..

 

[A-ManESL]

A-ManESL,

so pls conclude.....
using idols to worship jesus as the only and true god is accepted in islam? kindly make it simple as possible..

I think Einstein's quote applies here: "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler" . Much depends on what you mean by worship, by what you mean when you say God (and what you mean when you say only God, as if the Metaphysical Reality is subject to counting), and what you mean when you say Islam. If you take the common lay-man notion of these terms, then personal deification of humans (and Jesus (pbuh) was a human) isnt accepted. That isnt the way of Islam.

Regards

 

[nameless]

I think Einstein's quote applies here: "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler" . Much depends on what you mean by worship, by what you mean when you say God (and what you mean when you say only God, as if the Metaphysical Reality is subject to counting), and what you mean when you say Islam. If you take the common lay-man notion of these terms, then personal deification of humans (and Jesus (pbuh) was a human) isnt accepted. That isnt the way of Islam.

Regards

so, in the sense of islam's view on worship and god, using idols to worship jesus as the only and true god is accepted in islam, right?

 

[A-ManESL]

so, in the sense of islam's view on worship and god, using idols to worship jesus as the only and true god is accepted in islam, right?

You are thinking of things too simply, and indeed flippantly, but anyway, the answer is dependent on what you mean by the Islamic view. If it is understood to be the (outward) way shown by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) then no, for those were the conditions and the requirements of his time. If by the Islamic view, you mean a more universal understanding (where sanatan dharma and Islam and all other ways are esoterically the same) then yes, subject to the correct understanding of divinity in creation. The essence of all things ultimately derive from the intentions.

Regards

 

[nameless]

If it is understood to be the (outward) way shown by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) then no, for those were the conditions and the requirements of his time.
Regards

what were those conditions?
objecting the freedom of worship(by demanding the removal of idols) was the requirement?