Thought Experiment: switch "muslim" and "non-believer" in the Quran

[icehorse]

Hi Mahmoud,

I think your study is good, but you've assumed a tight focus. In the OP I was concerned about passages that are broader than just the "war" verses. Although it's good to see your summary of the war verses.

But there are far more verses that insult non-believers, even if not elevated to the level of war.

 

[atanu]

Experiment is illogical.

Muslims are called muslims because of their actions and good deeds.

Non believers are called non believer because of their actions and evil things they are doing.

Switching the two terms won't work. It is not logical. End of story.

But what if someone evil thinks one to be a muslim and others as evil?

 

[Sabour]

But what if someone evil thinks one to be a muslim and others as evil?

I didn't understand your point ?

 

[atanu]

Experiment is illogical.

Muslims are called muslims because of their actions and good deeds.

Non believers are called non believer because of their actions and evil things they are doing.

Switching the two terms won't work. It is not logical. End of story.

My question is related to your valid reasoning that the terms muslim and non-believers are to be taken in the context of their definitions as in Quran and that switching these two terms is not logical. I agree.

But what if a person who does not actually qualify to be called a muslim (in terms of Quranic definition) claims to be a muslim and goes around committing acts that can hardly be called Islam.

For example, think of the division of Muslims into two sects right after passing away of the Prophet. Who is proper muslim?

 

[icehorse]

My question is related to your valid reasoning that the terms muslim and non-believers are to be taken in the context of their definitions as in Quran and that switching these two terms is not logical. I agree.

But what if a person who does not actually qualify to be called a muslim (in terms of Quranic definition) claims to be a muslim and goes around committing acts that can hardly be called Islam.

For example, think of the division of Muslims into two sects right after passing away of the Prophet. Who is proper muslim?

Are you guys familiar with the form of inquiry that philosophers actually use that's known as a "thought experiment"? I didn't make up this particular thought experiment and I didn't make up the idea of thought experiments in general.

So when you say that this "isn't logical" you're saying that you know more than modern philosophers know.

 

[Sabour]

My question is related to your valid reasoning that the terms muslim and non-believers are to be taken in the context of their definitions as in Quran and that switching these two terms is not logical. I agree.

But what if a person who does not actually qualify to be called a muslim (in terms of Quranic definition) claims to be a muslim and goes around committing acts that can hardly be called Islam.

For example, think of the division of Muslims into two sects right after passing away of the Prophet. Who is proper muslim?

Thank you for clarifying.

First thing we all agree on is that in Islam, Quraan is the Word of God and one of the meanings of Islam is to obtain peace by surrendering to God which mean to obey him. So being a muslim means to follow the Quraan.

We are in no place to judge people but if we were to judge actions and see what is islamic and what is not, we can go back to the Quraan and start from there.

If that doesn't answer your question let me know.

 

[Sabour]

Are you guys familiar with the form of inquiry that philosophers actually use that's known as a "thought experiment"? I didn't make up this particular thought experiment and I didn't make up the idea of thought experiments in general.

So when you say that this "isn't logical" you're saying that you know more than modern philosophers know.

Well maybe one day we will be discovered

 

[icehorse]

Well maybe one day we will be discovered

I guess I would have thought that there are Muslims who are also philosophers. Shouldn't this be possible?

If a Muslim is a philosopher, then he or she must be temporarily allowed to think about ideas that go against Islam. He/she must be able to explore any idea with a clear logical approach. If this is not possible, then Islam is turning it's back on the field of philosophy.

 

[atanu]

Are you guys familiar with the form of inquiry that philosophers actually use that's known as a "thought experiment"? I didn't make up this particular thought experiment and I didn't make up the idea of thought experiments in general.

So when you say that this "isn't logical" you're saying that you know more than modern philosophers know.

Actually, I was supporting your point.

 

[atanu]

Thank you for clarifying.

First thing we all agree on is that in Islam, Quraan is the Word of God and one of the meanings of Islam is to obtain peace by surrendering to God which mean to obey him. So being a muslim means to follow the Quraan.

We are in no place to judge people but if we were to judge actions and see what is islamic and what is not, we can go back to the Quraan and start from there.

If that doesn't answer your question let me know.

It is a good answer. But then which of the warring clans followed Allah's or Koran's words correctly?

My point is that, one may egoistically hold on to a notion of a being a true man of Allah, but the actuality may be different.

Is there a likelihood of this happening or not?

 

[Sabour]

It is a good answer. But then which of the warring clans followed Allah's or Koran's words correctly?

My point is that, one may egoistically hold on to a notion of a being a true man of Allah, but the actuality may be different.

Is there a likelihood of this happening or not?

I can't say which are following correctly because I am not aware of them all and what they are doing, but I can say there might be none.

One that egoistically holds a notion of being a true man of Allah is not a true man of Allah because this is simply not Islamic.

However, there are lots of people who do that.

 

[atanu]

I can't say which are following correctly because I am not aware of them all and what they are doing, but I can say there might be none.

One that egoistically holds a notion of being a true man of Allah is not a true man of Allah because this is simply not Islamic.

However, there are lots of people who do that.

Thanks for a fine answer.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I have noticed something about Muslims and my encounters with them on other forums over the years, they are all very one sided in their logic.
They claim Islam is peace yet many of these guys will immediately express support for Al-Qaeda, Taliban or Hamas. They claim Islam is moral yet then try justifying the stoning of pregnant women.
It is very odd and the amount of logic being used is nil. Muslims would immediately find offense to the switching of Muslim with Mulhid or Kafir because they have an over whelming sense of entitlement. Everything under their own perception is right and holy under neath god's eyes no matter how blood thirsty or vile it is.
It is literally a case where "god did it, so it is right"

 

[Smart_Guy]

I have noticed something about Muslims and my encounters with them on other forums over the years, they are all very one sided in their logic.
They claim Islam is peace yet many of these guys will immediately express support for Al-Qaeda, Taliban or Hamas. They claim Islam is moral yet then try justifying the stoning of pregnant women.
It is very odd and the amount of logic being used is nil. Muslims would immediately find offense to the switching of Muslim with Mulhid or Kafir because they have an over whelming sense of entitlement. Everything under their own perception is right and holy under neath god's eyes no matter how blood thirsty or vile it is.
It is literally a case where "god did it, so it is right"

Those Muslims you encountered are the scum and low lives of the Muslim communities. The Islam I follow never condones what those terrorists do, nor it allows stoning pregnant women.

Please believe me when I say that I and most, if not all, other Muslims live around me are nothing like what you described. It is really sad that Muslims around me happen to have almost no background in English at all to share what they believe

Oh, I live in Makkah, the center and source of Islam.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Those Muslims you encountered are the scum and low lives of the Muslim communities. The Islam I follow never condones what those terrorists do, nor it allows stoning pregnant women.

Please believe me when I say that I and most, if not all, other Muslims live around me are nothing like what you described. It is really sad that Muslims around me happen to have almost no background in English at all to share what they believe

Oh, I live in Makkah, the center and source of Islam.

This has been my major issue. Muslims tend to be trained by shaykhs to NEVER criticize the behavior of morons within their own community. I see other Muslims get picked on for condemning stupidity.
A lot of overly political and war mongering shaykhs propagate idiocy. The issue though is that Sunni Muslims feel obliged to treat their words like law which it is not.
I do not recall Muhammad establishing any sort of clergy system before he died. So I have no idea why so many Muslims have the delusion that a shaykhs words are law.
Indeed a shaykhs is very knowledgeable but if a shaykh rapes his daughter by no means is this person a good guy.

I am very happy you do not defend the behavior of idiots. If you want to ensure your religion is kept intact I cannot blame you buddy

 

[Sha'irullah]

Oh, I live in Makkah, the center and source of Islam.

Yikes, I am so fascinated by the Kaaba. Masjid al-Haram looks soooooooooooooooo beautiful. I love Arabic architecture, it is so well designed and structured.
I bet you must feel proud to be an Arab living in Makkah . Can't blame ya, plenty to be proud about

 

[Smart_Guy]

This has been my major issue. Muslims tend to be trained by shaykhs to NEVER criticize the behavior of morons within their own community. I see other Muslims get picked on for condemning stupidity.
A lot of overly political and war mongering shaykhs propagate idiocy. The issue though is that Sunni Muslims feel obliged to treat their words like law which it is not.
I do not recall Muhammad establishing any sort of clergy system before he died. So I have no idea why so many Muslims have the delusion that a shaykhs words are law.
Indeed a shaykhs is very knowledgeable but if a shaykh rapes his daughter by no means is this person a good guy.

I am very happy you do not defend the behavior of idiots. If you want to ensure your religion is kept intact I cannot blame you buddy

Believe me, those idiots have been demonizing us before their reputation reached the west, and still are. I'm a Muslim that mostly identify as Sunni, and I by all means never religiously take a man's word given without very good reason, explanation and source. The Muslims in my community are all the same. Why the heck don't they learn English?

Yikes, I am so fascinated by the Kaaba. Masjid al-Haram looks soooooooooooooooo beautiful. I love Arabic architecture, it is so well designed and structured.
I bet you must feel proud to be an Arab living in Makkah . Can't blame ya, plenty to be proud about

Yeah, those are beautiful alright

I'm honored (I see better said than proud) to be an Arab living in Makkah only because of the real Islamic teachings, and their real application, given by God though the Prophet Muhammad.

But I honestly am not be proud of the main Muslim countries and what radicals do around the world falsely in the name of Islam

 

[Sabour]

Thanks for a fine answer.

Welcome friend

 

[Sabour]

Oh, I live in Makkah, the center and source of Islam.

I want to live there

 

[Smart_Guy]

I want to live there

I know how you feel bro.

And I never wanna leave this place too.