Those that believe unleavened bread symbolizes Jesus

[Rival]

I would hope we can keep this thread on topic and not turn it into a debate about Easter or the Eucharist...

 

[Regiomontanus]

Not in the Catholic Church

An interesting factoid some here may not know. Up until the Great Schism (1054) the Church used leavened bread. But then the Latins eventually switched to unleavened bread. This (along with the filioque controversy) are the (theological, though there were political reasons too, resulting from tensions between Rome and Constantinople) reasons the Church split into Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox..

Leavened and Unleavened Bread

 

[pearl]

An interesting factoid some here may not know

Yes, interesting, thanks.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

An interesting factoid some here may not know. Up until the Great Schism (1054) the Church used leavened bread. But then the Latins eventually switched to unleavened bread. This (along with the filioque controversy) are the (theological, though there were political reasons too, resulting from tensions between Rome and Constantinople) reasons the Church split into Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox..

Leavened and Unleavened Bread

I had no idea that happened. Fascinating. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Regiomontanus]

I had no idea that happened. Fascinating. Thanks for sharing.

Welcome. I find the history of it fascinating too.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

So Messianics are not Christian in your view?

My. Opinion of them does not have any bearing on the matter. However they seem to be some sort of half way house with unique views that are more Jewish than Christian.
They would not pass the usual test as Trinitarians. So many churches would not recognise them.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The question of the Eucharist is important and the earliest detailed reference that we have of the practice, is to be found in the Didache.
This is the "Training Manual" for gentiles joining the Judeo- Christian groups formed soon after Jesus' death. and dates from the early first century.

Extract from the Didache

"Greek Text with Side-by-Side Analytic Translation 23 (the Greek text is on facing page 22)

9:1 (And) concerning the eucharist, eucharistize thus:

9:2 First, concerning the cup:

We give you thanks, our Father,
for the holy vine of your servant David
which you revealed to us through your servant Jesus.
To you [is] the glory forever.

9:3 And concerning the broken [loaf]:

We give you thanks, our Father,
for the life and knowledge
which you revealed to us through your servant Jesus.
To you [is] the glory forever.

9:4 Just as this broken [loaf] was scattered
over the hills [as grain],
and, having_been_gathered_together, became one,
in_like_fashion, may your church be-gathered_together
from the ends of the earth into your kingdom.
Because yours is the glory and the power
through Jesus Christ forever.

9:5 (And) let no one eat or drink from your eucharist
except those baptized in the name of [the] Lord,
for the Lord has likewise said concerning this:
"Do not give what is holy to the dogs."

As Translated by Aaron Milavec in the Didache Text, Translation, Analysis and Commentary"

It can be seen from this that in their Eucharist the Bread and wine did not represent the Body and blood of Christ in any way. They had no access to the new testament writings or Pauls letters as they were not yet collated and published.

Interestingly this allusion to gathering the scattered grain into one loaf. is used in the celtic Eucharist , that we often use at our week day services. ( Anglican)

This is a very different interpretation to the usual one of Body and Blood.

 

[pearl]

Why does everything that Jesus taught have to be embellished by the church till it no longer resembles the original? Why wasn't his simple truth enough?

The Truth is never simple, nor is it kept in a closed box. Jesus knew this and is the reason he promised the Paraclete That fact is particularly important when we consider one of the principal activities of the Paraclete. The Paraclete is "the Spirit of Truth" who supplies guidance along the way of all truth (16:13). The Johannine Jesus had many things to say that his disciples could never understand in his lifetime (16:12); but then the Paraclete comes and takes those things and declares them (16:15). the Paraclete solves problems by supplying new insights into a revelation brought by Jesus. When God gave the Son, divine revelation was granted in all its completeness: Jesus was the very Word of God. Yet on this earth that Word spoke under the limitations of a particular culture and set of issues. How do Christians of other ages get God’s guidance for dealing with entirely different issues? The Paraclete who is present to every time and culture brings no new revelation; rather he takes the revelation of the Word made flesh and declares it anew, facing the things to come.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The Truth is never simple, nor is it kept in a closed box. Jesus knew this and is the reason he promised the Paraclete That fact is particularly important when we consider one of the principal activities of the Paraclete. The Paraclete is "the Spirit of Truth" who supplies guidance along the way of all truth (16:13). The Johannine Jesus had many things to say that his disciples could never understand in his lifetime (16:12); but then the Paraclete comes and takes those things and declares them (16:15). the Paraclete solves problems by supplying new insights into a revelation brought by Jesus. When God gave the Son, divine revelation was granted in all its completeness: Jesus was the very Word of God. Yet on this earth that Word spoke under the limitations of a particular culture and set of issues. How do Christians of other ages get God’s guidance for dealing with entirely different issues? The Paraclete who is present to every time and culture brings no new revelation; rather he takes the revelation of the Word made flesh and declares it anew, facing the things to come.

I prefer the words Holy Spirit.
Who is indeed speaking and guiding all of us. Christian or not.
However many are deaf to his voice.

I do not know if he introduces new revelation or not, the scriptures are silent on that. However as the Spirit of God. And as the prime way God communicates with us. I see no good reason why he would not answer new questions with new answers.

 

[pearl]

9:1 (And) concerning the eucharist, eucharistize thus:

Also, these prayers may be referring imediately not to the Eucharistic celebration but to a meal for the following reasons. First of all, because the chalice is put first. This is something found nowhere in the whole history of Eucharistic celebration. All accounts of the NT also place the bread first. There is a phrase in the beginning of chapter 10 that can hardly be referred to the Eucharist. The original Greek must be interpreted "after having had your fill" or "after having had enough" . Such an expression is possible only if a meal properly co-called has preceded. There are differences within Mark, Luke and Paul, not even the words used by Jesus to pronounce over the bread and wine are reproduced in the same form. The differences may reflect the actual liturgical usages of the primitive Christian communities each shaping and developing its own redaction of the tradition. excerpts "The Early Liturgy", Josef Jungmann.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Also, these prayers may be referring imediately not to the Eucharistic celebration but to a meal for the following reasons. First of all, because the chalice is put first. This is something found nowhere in the whole history of Eucharistic celebration. All accounts of the NT also place the bread first. There is a phrase in the beginning of chapter 10 that can hardly be referred to the Eucharist. The original Greek must be interpreted "after having had your fill" or "after having had enough" . Such an expression is possible only if a meal properly co-called has preceded. There are differences within Mark, Luke and Paul, not even the words used by Jesus to pronounce over the bread and wine are reproduced in the same form. The differences may reflect the actual liturgical usages of the primitive Christian communities each shaping and developing its own redaction of the tradition. excerpts "The Early Liturgy", Josef Jungmann.

I prefer the more modern interpretations and translations from the Greek of Aaron Milnovic.

Of course the Eucharist in the Didache was a meal, just as the last Supper was, and followed the usual order of the time. There is no reason at all why the Didache should follow the Scriptures, it predates them.

Interestingly our church like many other Anglican churches, usually holds a Eucharistic evening meal in church at Easter, in place of the normal Eucharist service. In recognition of the last supper and early church practice.

 

[Thief]

Edit: This is not about the communion wafer.

good thing you did so.....

as a boy.....about to leave catholic grade school
the opportunity was in front of me and I did ask a priest
DO YOU BELIEVE?
that the Host .....IS ......the flesh of Christ

he said yes

a miracle is dealt on every occasion of the Mass

 

[Thief]

and the Carpenter did usurp the Passover ritual

Now do THIS ....in rememberance of ME!

not very Jewish

 

[pearl]

I do not know if he introduces new revelation or not, the scriptures are silent on that. However as the Spirit of God. And as the prime way God communicates with us. I see no good reason why he would not answer new questions with new answers.

The Paraclete will speak nothing on his own; he will take what belongs to Jesus and declare it; he will speak only what he hears (John 16:13-15).
There are many titles for the Paraclete; Councilor, Spirit of Truth etc.

 

[pearl]

Of course the Eucharist in the Didache was a meal, just as the last Supper was, and followed the usual order of the time. There is no reason at all why the Didache should follow the Scriptures, it predates them.

What I have on the Didache (teaching of the Twelve Apostles) from the beginning of the 2nd century, rediscovered in the 1873 by an oriental bishop, Philotheos Bryennios. In the 9th and 10th chapters of the Didache ar4 found the well known eucharistic prayers but the precise place and meaning of these prayers is not absolutely clear. Also interesting is the daily devotions of early Christians. Didache 8, 2=3

 

[Brickjectivity]

Easter bunnies and chocolate eggs and jellybeans are purely a secular money making endeavor. Nothing to do with the religious commemoration of Easter.

I think eggs have a connection with resurrection through fertility ideas, but most people don't. I can see a connection, but I also see a connection between that and the menorah. Its a thin connection, somewhat like French and English are connected a little.

 

[pearl]

I think eggs have a connection with resurrection through fertility ideas, but most people don't. I can see a connection, but I also see a connection between that and the menorah. Its a thin connection, somewhat like French and English are connected a little.

I agree. There is connection to be made for many the 'symbols' used in the 'private' celebration of Easter. The confusion arises from the erroneous belief or deliberate accusation, that these are sacramentals used in the Liturgy of Easter. For most families the celebration of Easter does not end with leaving the Church but continues at home. Most represent, in one way or another, new life from what only appeared to be dead. When our kids were young I would cut a branch from the lilac bush, the earliest to show the green leaf buds, potted it and with what only appeared to be dead decorated an 'Easter' tree. We decorated our own Easter candle which we would light returning from the Vigil.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

What I have on the Didache (teaching of the Twelve Apostles) from the beginning of the 2nd century, rediscovered in the 1873 by an oriental bishop, Philotheos Bryennios. In the 9th and 10th chapters of the Didache ar4 found the well known eucharistic prayers but the precise place and meaning of these prayers is not absolutely clear. Also interesting is the daily devotions of early Christians. Didache 8, 2=3

Read Aaron Milnovic book I referenced in an earlier post. And the Didache will become far clearer to you . A second century date makes no sense as the target of the Didache as an apprenticeship to the new Jesus movement had already coalesced into the Christian church by that date. However it is known to have still been in use as late as the fourth century. But by then it had been superceded by more recent developments.



Josef Jungmann who you referenced was a Jesuit scholar who was well versed in Catholic doctrine. However the church had always played down what fragments of the Didache had been known, as they did not seem to fit with with the teachings And practice of the church. The arrival on the scene of the entire document, was not well received.

Jungmann and his contemporaries attempted to reconcile the Didache with passages from the gospels, and made judgements around the discrepancies. This was of course fruitless as it predates most such writings.

More recent major study and investigations by Aaron Milnovic and his peers, have seen it as an apprenticeship manual for gentile recruits. Which has allowed them to understand it in a far simpler light.
The order of the Eucharist makes absolute sense. As do such prayers as are mentioned.
It is interesting that women played a full part in the teaching of recruits and services, as is made clear by the gender usage in the original Greek.

it is also clear from the text that they expected the end of times in their lifetime.
Their version of the lord's prayer makes that very clear.

However as you have not demonstrated that you have any knowledge of these more recent discoveries. I suggest you read a copy of Milavec's work.

I do not propose to work through the outdated Catholic opinions with you.



biblical

 

[Tzephanyahu]

From what I understand, the puncture holes in the bread symbolizes Jesus's puncture wounds.

To be honest, this "cute" tradition surrounding the Unleavened Bread, that is popularised among Torah-keeping Christians, is without evidence or referenced in the Besorah or the writings of the Disciples. I have seen it mentioned and even shared it (shame on me) during the Feast, but only as interesting imagery and not as fact - if that makes sense. But it is a bit silly really.

However, the Matzah is symbolic of the Bread of Life coming from the Heavens, like Manna, pointing to the Messiah, Yahushua.

As such, I was wondering:

1. What do round matzah symbolize?

2. What do square ones?

3. Why are there no triangular matzah - would this not be most symbolic of the trinity?

4. What is the significance of the matzah-making process from kneading to finished product being only up to 18 minutes?

5. Why isn't sugar added to the matzah? How about salt?

I'm not aware of any Christian traditions ascribing different meanings to the differently shaped or baking method of matzah.

Neither am I aware of a significant reason why Jews have different ways of preparing the matzah, that is found in the Scriptures. However, it seems that most of the seder developed from after the Babylonian exile - so perhaps there are ancient reasons dating back to that time. However, the Afikoman has interesting parallels with the death and resurrection of Yahushua.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I don't know if this is relevant at all, but I am reading Thoreau now , a sort early american naturalist, and he has riff about unleavened bread in the book Walden, talking about a sort of folk belief that eating unleavened bread was unhealthy , and the leaven was the soul of the bread. - Thoreau, Henry David. Walden; or, Life in the Woods . Boston, Ticknor and Fields, 1854, p. 68

So if that's at all relevant, I wonder how that might connect to the views of 19th century protestant america, and from that into today. Or if there is no connection there