"There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood."

[CMike]

He did not die, really. And what sacrifice is that, if you know you are the son of God and will return soon? Not impressive. There are other humans who really sacrificed themselves without this sort of "divine insurance/delusion" of coming back as the masters of the Universe.

He just took the Passover weekend off for our sins, at best.

Ciao

- viole

You make good points.

It really fails any logical sense.

If you supposedly are returning where is the sacrifice?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The true heroes of Judaism proclaimed from Deuterenomy "Hear O'Israel, the Lo-d Is our G-D, the Lo-rd is One"

This is how a great jew died.

When Hadrian issued his terrible decrees outlawing the practice of Judaism, and in particular making it illegal to teach Torah on the pain of death, it was Rabbi Akiva who boldly stood up in a public square and began teaching Torah. The Romans, indeed, arrested him and put him in prison. In the same prison was his friend Pappus, who was caught for selling goods on the black market. “Happy are you, Rabbi Akiva,” Pappus told him, “that you were arrested for teaching Torah. Woe to Pappus, who was arrested for trying to make a few dollars.”

Rabbi Akiva was executed by the Romans on the eve of Yom Kippur in the city of Caesarea where even today one can see the ruins of Hippodrome, which was the arena where the Romans executed people publicly. Even as they tortured him to death he recited the final words of a Jew, the great proclamation of faith in God and His oneness, “Hear, O Israel, God is our God; God is one.”

His students, who stood nearby as the Romans were flaying flesh with iron combs, asked, “Even till now?” Are you still thinking about your obligations to God even at this horrific, tragic moment?

“All my life,” he said to them, “I waited for the opportunity to show how much I love God, and now that I have the opportunity should I waste it?”

Then, “he died with the word One” on his lips, the Talmud (Berachos 61b) says.


When Hadrian issued his terrible decrees outlawing the practice of Judaism, and in particular making it illegal to teach Torah on the pain of death, it was Rabbi Akiva who boldly stood up in a public square and began teaching Torah. The Romans, indeed, arrested him and put him in prison. In the same prison was his friend Pappus, who was caught for selling goods on the black market. “Happy are you, Rabbi Akiva,” Pappus told him, “that you were arrested for teaching Torah. Woe to Pappus, who was arrested for trying to make a few dollars.”

Rabbi Akiva was executed by the Romans on the eve of Yom Kippur in the city of Caesarea where even today one can see the ruins of Hippodrome, which was the arena where the Romans executed people publicly. Even as they tortured him to death he recited the final words of a Jew, the great proclamation of faith in God and His oneness, “Hear, O Israel, God is our God; God is one.”

His students, who stood nearby as the Romans were flaying flesh with iron combs, asked, “Even till now?” Are you still thinking about your obligations to God even at this horrific, tragic moment?

“All my life,” he said to them, “I waited for the opportunity to show how much I love God, and now that I have the opportunity should I waste it?”

Then, “he died with the word One” on his lips, the Talmud (Berachos 61b) says.
Jesus "why have you forsaken me" shows that he died as a wuss.

He could have alluded to anything for example the prayer from Deuterenomy.

I don't think it shows anything... especially since the Bible doesn't agree with itself about what his last words were. Only Mark and Matthew say his last words were "why have you forsaken me?" In Luke, it was "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit" and in John, it was just "it is finished."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you read Psalms 22 King David is asking for G-D to help Israel at it's time of distress.

However, jesus sacrificed himself, right?

So what is he complaining about?

He got what he wanted. Correct?

If you had bothered to read my earlier post, you would've known that the assumption isn't that he was consoling himself; it's that he was consoling the onlookers.

 

[CMike]

If you had bothered to read my earlier post, you would've known that the assumption isn't that he was consoling himself; it's that he was consoling the onlookers.

He was consoling the onlookers by whinning to G-D "why have you forsaken me"?

How about something like, hey I planned to do this. I'm sacrificing myself. In fact, this is my intention all along.

Don't worry gang I will arise again.

Oh..and btw blame the jews for killing me, not the Romans whom are actually nailing me to the wood.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

He was consoling the onlookers by whinning to G-D "why have you forsaken me"?

That's the hypothesis: refer to the content of the psalm by giving its title.

What's your alternative? That he just happened to coincidentally "whine" the words of that psalm? No matter what, I think we have to conclude that the reference is being made to that psalm for some purpose.

 

[CMike]

That's the hypothesis: refer to the content of the psalm by giving its title.

What's your alternative? That he just happened to coincidentally "whine" the words of that psalm? No matter what, I think we have to conclude that the reference is being made to that psalm for some purpose.

The reason is obvious. He was whinning about his misfortune about being executed.

"Why have you forsaken me" is rather self explanatory.

It's certainly not praising G-D like the great jewish martyrs have done during their death.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The reason is obvious. He was whinning about his misfortune about being executed.

"Why have you forsaken me" is rather self explanatory.

It's certainly not praising G-D like the great jewish martyrs have done during their death.

Here's my perspective: since half of the Gospels record him saying something else, if the crucifixion happened at all, I'd put the odds somewhere below 50/50 that he even said this. And if he didn't say it, then the words were added by someone else.

When I think of all the possible reasons why an early Christian would put these words in Jesus' mouth, it seems especially unlikely that he'd do it to make Jesus look "whiny". OTOH, I think it's quite possible that it was done for some theological reason that made sense to the early Christians... even if it doesn't make sense to you.

Honestly, I can't understand why an observant Jew is approaching a Christian gospel with the assumption that it must be literally true.

 

[CMike]

Here's my perspective: since half of the Gospels record him saying something else, if the crucifixion happened at all, I'd put the odds somewhere below 50/50 that he even said this. And if he didn't say it, then the words were added by someone else.

When I think of all the possible reasons why an early Christian would put these words in Jesus' mouth, it seems especially unlikely that he'd do it to make Jesus look "whiny". OTOH, I think it's quite possible that it was done for some theological reason that made sense to the early Christians... even if it doesn't make sense to you.

Honestly, I can't understand why an observant Jew is approaching a Christian gospel with the assumption that it must be literally true.

I have no reason to believe that jesus didn't say it.

I don't believe what he said about himself, but as I stated I have no reason to doubt he said it.

 

[Desert Snake]

I have no reason to believe that jesus didn't say it.

I don't believe what he said about himself, but as I stated I have no reason to doubt he said it.

'Pick & choosem' meaning and context.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have no reason to believe that jesus didn't say it.

I don't believe what he said about himself, but as I stated I have no reason to doubt he said it.

The fact that the Bible includes two other conflicting versions of his last words isn't reason to doubt that he said this particular version? Really?

 

[Desert Snake]

The fact that the Bible includes two other conflicting versions of his last words isn't reason to doubt that he said this particular version? Really?

I didn't know that/

 

[InChrist]

The fact that the Bible includes two other conflicting versions of his last words isn't reason to doubt that he said this particular version? Really?

I look at the different versions of Jesus' last words, not as conflicting, but as complimentary and each giving further information and insight.

 

[CMike]

The fact that the Bible includes two other conflicting versions of his last words isn't reason to doubt that he said this particular version? Really?

Maybe he has several last words?

 

[Sleeppy]

It's obvious we all have some intense feelings over Jesus, even though we may not subscribe to his beliefs. There were many ironies I tried to point out; this was a son of David, and a Rabbi, who was martyred in almost identical circumstances to that of Rabbi Akiva, and yet the huge problem we've come up with is the particular book of Scripture worth reciting at death. According to those of us here, the son of David chose Psalm 22 of all Scripture to recall, and somehow picked the wrong line.

Pretty ridiculous. I'd agree with InChrist and say that Jesus said each of these things before his death on the cross. If I were to bet, this would be among the first sayings, not the last.

There is never a more fitting time for a son of Adam to speak those words, than when dying;

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh.'

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Maybe he has several last words?

Or maybe they really do conflict.

You said before that you had NO reason to doubt that Jesus said the Mark/Matthew version of his last words. Are you still holding to this position? Is your faith in the gospels (two of them, anyhow) still iron-clad?

Are you so irrationally determined to paint Jesus as a real but "wussy" character that the apparent conflict between the three versions creates absolutely no doubt that Matthew and Mark are true?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I look at the different versions of Jesus' last words, not as conflicting, but as complimentary and each giving further information and insight.

All three are versions of "Jesus said '____' and then he died." They could all be wrong, but no more than one of them can be correct.

 

[Sleeppy]

All three are versions of "Jesus said '____' and then he died." They could all be wrong, but no more than one of them can be correct.

Not true. We're likely dealing with more than one original witness, and more than one scribe for the event. Reporters don't all acquire the same information, at the same times. Jesus was dying on a cross, which took time; he could have easily said each of the reported things before death-- and a crowd would not be hearing or remembering everything exactly the same.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not true. We're likely dealing with more than one original witness, and more than one scribe for the event. Reporters don't all acquire the same information, at the same times. Jesus was dying on a cross, which took time; he could have easily said each of the reported things before death-- and a crowd would not be hearing or remembering everything exactly the same.

Then the "... and then he died" part is wrong for at least two of the versions.

And I don't think that your explanation works, since Mark, Matthew, and Luke all share a common source. It seems that the author of Luke had the Mark/Matthew version but decided to delete "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" and replace it with "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit." The preamble to Luke suggests that the author was trying to improve on previous accounts; perhaps he thought this change was a correction.

 

[Sleeppy]

Then the "... and then he died" part is wrong for at least two of the versions.

And I don't think that your explanation works, since Mark, Matthew, and Luke all share a common source. It seems that the author of Luke had the Mark/Matthew version but decided to delete "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" and replace it with "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit." The preamble to Luke suggests that the author was trying to improve on previous accounts; perhaps he thought this change was a correction.

The common source is not known; there could have easily been more than one source, just as there are concerning today's news. Luke had any number of reasons for telling a slightly different story than the other reporters. He may have foreseen the negative backlash that Psalm 22's introduction would elicit from a reader ignorant of David. Whatever the reason, "My God, my God, why have you left me" is reported to come from a dying "son of David."

 

[CMike]

It's obvious we all have some intense feelings over Jesus, even though we may not subscribe to his beliefs. There were many ironies I tried to point out; this was a son of David, and a Rabbi, who was martyred in almost identical circumstances to that of Rabbi Akiva, and yet the huge problem we've come up with is the particular book of Scripture worth reciting at death. According to those of us here, the son of David chose Psalm 22 of all Scripture to recall, and somehow picked the wrong line.

Pretty ridiculous. I'd agree with InChrist and say that Jesus said each of these things before his death on the cross. If I were to bet, this would be among the first sayings, not the last.

There is never a more fitting time for a son of Adam to speak those words, than when dying;

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh.'

Jesus was nothing like Rabbi Akiva.

1) Jesus was not a "son of David". In Judaism tribal lineage goes solely by the father. We don't know whom Jesus' biological father was. When this is unknown he is considered part of the general population. He had no tribal lineage.

2) Jesus spent most of his time proclaiming his own greatness. Rabbi Akiva was humble. Humbleness was taught from Moses. Jesus was anything but humble.

3) Rabbi Akiva never said he was sacrificing himself. In fact, sacrificing yourself, is within itself a sin. He also never claimed to have any divine power or the power to forgive everyone's sins. Only G-D has the power to do that.

4) Rabbi Akiva when being tortured proclaimed G-D's greatness. Jesus' words -"why have you forsaken me".

5) Maybe jesus was a "rabbi" to Christians, he wasn't to jews. His teachings directly contradict what G-D commanded the jews.

Jesus wasn't even close in the same league with Rabbi Akiva.