There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[Sheldon]

Well you’re talking about prayer and making tests so what you’re testing is more like witchcraft, or prayer to a rock or idol.

45k varyingly different versions of Christianity remember? You need to take it up with them, as you seem to be shooting the messenger here.

 

[ElishaElijah]

The real irony is I made no comment about what prayer is or does, he simply made an inaccurate claim, and ignored the point I had made, about his claim being an obvious example of selection bias, namely that he claimed a deity had answered many of his prayers, but sometimes the answer was no or wait. As I said, it's hard to know what to say to anyone who can't see the obvious selection bias there.

I have a pair of lucky pants, sometimes they work sometimes they don't.

How do you know it's not just random luck?

Damn it, time for new pants.

So did your parents give you everything you asked for as a kid?

 

[Sheldon]

You should write a book on how to successfully argue with yourself and against a strawman and still lose.

Oh if I ever need to reference textbook straw men, then I have your posts to use as massive database. Nice single sentence handwaving dismissal though, playing to your strengths again, care to see if you can offer anything cogent?

Sheldon said: ↑
According to you, but not to them, why is this so hard for you to grasp? The different perspectives that the 45k varyingly different Christian sects and denominations have is subjective, that necessarily includes yours. I have explained again and again that the claim is ostensibly the same to a neutral observer, why you keep repeating the claim then is bizarre.

Again you see keen not to acknowledge that even professionals within religions, priests, pastors, nuns etc etc lose their faith. Denying they were proper Christians is of course a no true Scotsman fallacy. I guess the rationale must be a psychological defence mechanism, just deny deny deny that your experience could possibly not be what you think it is, thus when others find that to be the case, the only way you can rationalise it is to insist your experience is the one true Christian experience.

However it is a subjective claim, and I have explained exhaustively that the claim can't validate itself by mere repetition, you might as well stamp your feet. What's worse you just asserted any Christian who arrives at a different conclusion to yours might be deceived by Satan, but when I point out that rationale could be equally applied to your own experience, you immediately move away from it, unsurprisingly, since I realise such ideas are probably painful or fearful for you contemplate.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
The real irony is I made no comment about what prayer is or does, he simply made an inaccurate claim, and ignored the point I had made, about his claim being an obvious example of selection bias, namely that he claimed a deity had answered many of his prayers, but sometimes the answer was no or wait. As I said, it's hard to know what to say to anyone who can't see the obvious selection bias there.

I have a pair of lucky pants, sometimes they work sometimes they don't.

How do you know it's not just random luck?

Damn it, time for new pants.

So did your parents give you everything you asked for as a kid?

Sorry but that question has no relevance whatsoever with my post. Maybe if you Google selection bias, then try to gain a basic understanding of what it means, this might help you offer some cogent and relevant response, as you seem to have missed my point entirely again.

CLUE: my point was that your claim was an obvious example of selection bias, it had nothing to do with anyone's expectations of prayer per se.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Why are you telling this to an atheist? You may want to let the catholic church know though, they can close Lourdes down.


FYI, those are not atheistic notions of prayer, they're theistic notions of prayer that differ from yours. Though I think comparing intercessory prayer to witchcraft is a pretty accurate analogy FWIW, so kudos.

I’m still wondering why you’re on this thread, you have no clue about what the Bible says about prayer, what it means to be believer, who is a legitimate believer and who isn’t and how to test for this. When you are shown to to be wrong you say, I don’t believe the Bible. If you’re entering into the conversation then you should know what you’re talking about but you don’t.
You also make the assumption that I don’t think someone who has known God could stop following Him and turn away, also a false assumption. On your part.
You seem to think a person is a Christian if they say they are, or were a Christian because they said they were, also false.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well you’re talking about prayer and making tests so what you’re testing is more like witchcraft, or prayer to a rock or idol.

Please, try to read this very very carefully. It is certain Christians, not all of them, that claim that prayer can help in healing. I did not make the claim that prayer can help, he did not make the claim that prayer can help. But you know what you could do if it did help in healing? You could test the power of prayer and see if it actually makes a difference. The tests were set up mostly by Christians. Any skeptics would have been there only to keep them from using bad criteria, and the prayer failed. It did not help.

Meanwhile you cannot even say what prayer is in the first place. Did I tell you what it was? Did @Sheldon tell you what it was? This would be your claim so it is up to you to define it. People only tend to get things so wrong when they have a serious fear that their beliefs are wrong.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Sorry but that question has no relevance whatsoever with my post. Maybe if you Google selection bias, then try to gain a basic understanding of what it means, this might help you offer some cogent and relevant response, as you seem to have missed my point entirely again.

CLUE: my point was that your claim was an obvious example of selection bias, it had nothing to do with anyone's expectations of prayer per se.

My question was very relevant because you fail to understand prayer and the question is the same. Did your parents give you everything you asked for as a kid?
Does God give you everything you ask for as His child?
See how you avoid easy, simple questions?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I’m still wondering why you’re on this thread, you have no clue about what the Bible says about prayer, what it means to be believer, who is a legitimate believer and who isn’t and how to test for this. When you are shown to
Be wrong you say, I don’t believe the Bible. If you’re entering into the conversation then you should know what you’re talking about but you don’t.
You also make the assumption that I don’t think someone who has known God could stop following Him and turn away, also a false assumption. On your part.
You seem to think a person is a Christian if they say they are, or were a Christian because they said they were, also false.

You appear to know far less than @Sheldon does.

He can at least support his claims. You seem to have a problem doing that properly.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Please, try to read this very very carefully. It is certain Christians, not all of them, that claim that prayer can help in healing. I did not make the claim that prayer can help, he did not make the claim that prayer can help. But you know what you could do if it did help in healing? You could test the power of prayer and see if it actually makes a difference. The tests were set up mostly by Christians. Any skeptics would have been there only to keep them from using bad criteria, and the prayer failed. It did not help.

Meanwhile you cannot even say what prayer is in the first place. Did I tell you what it was? Did @Sheldon tell you what it was? This would be your claim so it is up to you to define it. People only tend to get things so wrong when they have a serious fear that their beliefs are wrong.

I did define prayer, why not accept that? You have this “Christians out there believe such and such” those people aren’t on here. The
Bible defines what prayer is and I told you so you seem to have a mental blockage.
When I prayed for God to deliver me was it God or the prayer? It was God that delivered me and the prayer was the request.

 

[Sheldon]

I’m still wondering why you’re on this thread,

Google public debate forum, this might help.

you have no clue about what the Bible says about prayer, what it means to be believer, who is a legitimate believer and who isn’t and how to test for this.

Yes many Christians of course would say the same about you, you seem unable to grasp what a subjective opinion is and means in a debate, as opposed to objective facts.

When you are shown to Be wrong you say, I don’t believe the Bible.

Care to quote an example, instead a petulant generic ad hominem, as I am pretty dubious about this latest straw man of yours, though it is axiomatic that as an atheist I would find the theistic claims of the bible dubious of course.

If you’re entering into the conversation then you should know what you’re talking about but you don’t.

More ad hominem again, try quoting text from the post, and explaining how and why you think it is wrong, it's a pretty basic way for you to learn how to debate, rather than endlessly preach your beliefs at people, while ironically dismissing rational arguments and objections, with handwaving and rhetoric like that.

You also make the assumption that I don’t think someone who has known God could stop following Him and turn away, also a false assumption. On your part.

It was neither false nor an assumption, it's a straw man you have created, what you claimed is that people who were once Christians and are now atheists, were never proper Christians. Note proper here is your subjective belief, this seems lost on you. I can find a quote from you if you'd like, but I am off to see my granddaughter in a while as it's her birthday.

You seem to think a person is a Christian if they say they are, or were a Christian because they said they were, also false.

Nope, this is another of your endless straw man fallacies. I mean I have taken your word for it obviously, but only for the sake of expedience in facilitating debate. As otherwise it would be impractical.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I did define prayer, why not accept that? You have this “Christians out there believe such and such” those people aren’t in here. The
Bible defines what prayer is and I told you so you seem to have a mental blockage.
When I prayed for God to deliver me was it God or the prayer? It was God that delivered me and the prayer was the request.

Not that I ever say. I only remember some vague handwaving. And saying that "the Bible defines prayer" is a copout. If that is all that you did then you did not define prayer.

You keep forgetting the 45,000 different sects and denominations of Christianity. Some Christian somewhere is going to disagree with you and you are going to look as if you are wrong if that is all that you can say. Where do you think that others would get their definition of prayer from? You would need to be able to show how they got it wrong since they would have gotten it from the Bible as well.

 

[ElishaElijah]

You keep forgetting the 45,000 different sects and denominations of Christianity.

So what? The definitions come from the Bible not the denominations. And when I give Biblical definitions you choke on the them.
Or deflect, or some say
I don’t believe the Bible I’m an atheist

 

[Subduction Zone]

So what? The definitions come from the Bible not the denominations. And when I give Biblical definitions you choke on the them.

Wrong, the denominations come from the Bible too and saying "its in the Bible" does not help you since one can find anything one wants in the Bible.

Does the Bible support abortion? Yes, yes it does. I can name quite a few verses and passages.

Does the Bible support slavery that is almost as bad as the chattel slavery of the South? Yes it does. I can name quite a few verses and passages.

That it is "in the Bible" is not proof of anything.

And no, I may laugh at your poor definitions. That is not choking.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

My question was very relevant because you fail to understand prayer and the question is the same. Did your parents give you everything you asked for as a kid?
Does God give you everything you ask for as His child?
See how you avoid easy, simple questions?

How do you tell the difference between a prayer that was not answered by God and a prayer that was asked to a non existent God?

 

[Sheldon]

I did define prayer, why not accept that? You have this “Christians out there believe such and such” those people aren’t in here.

You seem to be blaming @Subduction Zone for the fact there are 45k varyingly different Christian sects and denominations. You do this a lot, shoot the messenger so to speak.

The
Bible defines what prayer is and I told you so you seem to have a mental blockage.

The bible is contradictory and contains passages that support widely differing ideas on prayer. For example:

John 14
13 And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me for anything in My name, I will do it.

When I prayed for God to deliver me was it God or the prayer? It was God that delivered me and the prayer was the request.

And as has been enplaned to you exhaustively, this is firstly a subjective anecdotal claim, and the conclusion is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, though I hold little hope you will understand that or its significance.

Others make identical claims, and believe in entirely different deities and religions, you seem not ot understand what that infers about your claim as well. You just repeat it endlessly, as if because you believe, it has the same significance and meaning to anyone you tell it to. However to a neutral observer your claim is not significantly different to any other theists of any other religion.

 

[Sheldon]

How do you tell the difference between a prayer that was not answered by God and a prayer that was asked to a non existent God?

Oh oh oh, me me me, I know this one...

It's faith, or selection bias to anyone who reasons rationally.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Wrong, the denominations come from the Bible too and saying "its in the Bible" does not help you since one can find anything one wants in the Bible.

Does the Bible support abortion? Yes, yes it does. I can name quite a few verses and passages.

Does the Bible support slavery that is almost as bad as the chattel slavery of the South? Yes it does. I can name quite a few verses and passages.

That it is "in the Bible" is not proof of anything.

And no, I may laugh at your poor definitions. That is not choking.

You choke on the Word of God because although you claim to know it better you demonstrate that you don’t even understand the milk let alone the meat of Scripture.

 

[ElishaElijah]

John 14
13 And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me for anything in My name, I will do it.

Do you even know what it means to pray in Jesus name? You probably think it’s some phrase at the end of the prayer.

 

[ElishaElijah]

And as has been enplaned to you exhaustively, this is firstly a subjective anecdotal claim, and the conclusion is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, though I hold little hope you will understand that or its significance.

Ok stick to the subject my student… What did I say, was it the prayer that delivered me or God?

 

[ElishaElijah]

How do you tell the difference between a prayer that was not answered by God and a prayer that was asked to a non existent God?

What do mean? I pray to God the Father and Jesus Christ who I know.