Theosis, Salvation, and Jesus

[Rival]

The Jewish People and Belief in Jesus | Jewish Voice Ministries International... No group of Jews believes this? Could you explain this site I'm fairly certain that a Jew wrote it. To say no group requires extensive knowledge of every group within your faith. How many groups are there? Perhaps a prophet is a stretch, but wasnt he a rabbi in your faith?

That site is Christian. It even calls itself a ministry. Some Christians like to Jew-up their faith in order to decieve naive Jews into it or claim legitimacy.

There is doubt Jesus was even a rabbi/recognised teacher. Some believe he is mentioned in the Talmud (and never for good) while others don't.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Jewish People and Belief in Jesus | Jewish Voice Ministries International... No group of Jews believes this? Could you explain this site I'm fairly certain that a Jew wrote it. To say no group requires extensive knowledge of every group within your faith. How many groups are there? Perhaps a prophet is a stretch, but wasnt he a rabbi in your faith?

Messianic Jews are just Jews who have converted to Christianity but keep the trappings of Judaism. Acceptance or rejection of Jesus as the messiah is/was the primary fork that caused Christianity to diverge from Judaism and the two only grew apart more as time went on. So Messianic Jews aren't practicing Judaism. They're Christians.

 

[Rival]

Messianic Jews are just Jews who have converted to Christianity but keep the trappings of Judaism. Acceptance or rejection of Jesus as the messiah is/was the primary fork that caused Christianity to diverge from Judaism and the two only grew apart more as time went on. So Messianic Jews aren't practicing Judaism. They're Christians.

And most of them are not even born Jewish. Lol.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And most of them are not even born Jewish. Lol.

Really? I didn't know that. Very strange.

 

[Rival]

Really? I didn't know that. Very strange.

A lot are ex-Protestant flavour Christians who are seeking a more, in their view, authentic Christianity. Quite a few go on to become Noachides. I hear them call in a lot on this Rabbi's show I watch on YT. A lot of ex MJs. The Rabbi actually thinks the MJ movement a blessing in disguise as it is making so many Noachides and bringing more Jews back to Judaism after learning more. Lol.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

A lot are ex-Protestant flavour Christians who are seeking a more, in their view, authentic Christianity. Quite a few go on to become Noachides. I hear them call in a lot on this Rabbi's show I watch on YT. A lot of ex MJs. The Rabbi actually thinks the MJ movement a blessing in disguise as it is making so many Noachides and bringing more Jews back to Judaism after learning more. Lol.

Interesting but I can see that. Weird that they would think modern Jewish practices would bring them closer to Jesus. They really don't do their homework. If they wanted a more ancient and authentic Christianity, they would be better off looking into Greek Orthodoxy or even Oriental Orthodoxy.

 

[Rival]

Interesting but I can see that. Weird that they would think modern Jewish practices would bring them closer to Jesus. They really don't do their homework. If they wanted a more ancient and authentic Christianity, they would be better off looking into Greek Orthodoxy or even Oriental Orthodoxy.

It likely also has a lot to do with the boatload of MJ proselytising going on.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

There is doubt Jesus was even a rabbi/recognised teacher. Some believe he is mentioned in the Talmud (and never for good) while others don't.

I must have learned more the side which sympathize with Jesus as a rabbi and a great teacher, I have heard from very reliable sources, in all division of Judaism, Orthodox, conservative, and not just MJs) that He was respected and revered For me, there are sides everywhere, even in or especially in Christianity of the nature of Jesus. To find an universal answer is probably not possible. I suppose you find Jesus as a false prophet correct?

 

[Rival]

I must have learned more the side which sympathize with Jesus as a rabbi and a great teacher, I have heard from very reliable sources, in all division of Judaism, Orthodox, conservative, and not just MJs) that He was respected and revered For me, there are sides everywhere, even in or especially in Christianity of the nature of Jesus. To find an universal answer is probably not possible. I suppose you find Jesus as a false prophet correct?

Even calling him a false prophet is a stretch according to what we can actually know; but if he said what the gospels say he did he fairly would be. He was likely really just a nobody who preached around Judah. Some might consider him a heretic. I know of no Orthodox Jews who respect Jesus for anything. He's just not on the Jewish radar at all and especially given that we believe the gospels are unreliable mostly pious fiction at best, it's fair to say we don't even have enough information to work with, so it is not even that we can simply call him a false prophet because we don't know if he made any prophecies.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

I don't agree that James 1:5-10 reflects what we were talking about (which I would summarise as the need to acquire virtues).
James 1:5-10 appears to be a groundless polemic against those without faith. It accuses them of being "double-minded", and "unstable" in "all" their "ways"

I should clarify. What I was trying to point in James was the process of how we obtain virtues. You pointed out a suffering process. In this case, James is directing if Any man lack wisdom (virtues) let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and denies them not. Because people rely so much on literalism, thinking that they could just ask and receive without any work on their part. The double-minded and unstable aspect is not supposed to be polemic or accusatory rather a guide to how we are to ask. We shouldn't waiver in faith, for those who waiver can't expect to achieve their desire in their prayers. Just like praying to lose weight. We can pray all we want to lose a couple pounds, but if, after our prayers we go straight to the kitchen and pull out a chocolate cake and down the whole thing, where is the profit of the prayer that was made. That is wavering. it is 'double-minded' because instead of focusing on God and his salvation from gluttony, they were thinking about the deliciousness of the cake; and 'unstable' because they wanted one thing but were contradicting the thing they wanted and therefore pointless. That looks like what James was referring to. I don't think he was pointing fingers, but he wanted people to know they can receive anything that is good if they start by asking and do so with faith and works. James 2:14

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Even calling him a false prophet is a stretch. He was really just a nobody who preached around Judah. Some might consider him a heretic. I know of no Orthodox Jews who respect Jesus for anything. He's just not on the Jewish radar at all and especially given that we believe the Gospels are unreliable mostly pious fiction at best, it's fair to say we don't even have enough information to work with.

This link is a from an orthodox scholar Jewish rabbi, who seems to certainly have Jesus on his radar.

I'm sure we can say that some believe this, and some believe that; but what is it that you believe. I don't think it's a lack of information as much as it is willingness to discover what created this major religious thought called Christianity. To say Jesus was a nobody yet history marks his birth as the beginning of the common era is not understandable to me. He must have had some popularity at that time. He couldn't have been a nobody while have thousands of followers at the time. Surely there must have been something written of him other than unreliable pious fiction. Josephus comes to mind, but maybe that was fiction too. If He was a nobody, why did so many people write about him? Jews and Gentiles alike. They wrote of his death and crucifixion. Why was He sentenced to death if He was a nobody? Based on the factual nature of the Christ and history, evidence is pointing more toward the Gospels accuracy than away from it as a fictional document. Have you read the Gospels? Maybe you could be able to determine it's traditional Jewish accuracy.

 

[Rival]

This link is a from an orthodox scholar Jewish rabbi, who seems to certainly have Jesus on his radar.

I'm sure we can say that some believe this, and some believe that; but what is it that you believe. I don't think it's a lack of information as much as it is willingness to discover what created this major religious thought called Christianity. To say Jesus was a nobody yet history marks his birth as the beginning of the common era is not understandable to me. He must have had some popularity at that time. He couldn't have been a nobody while have thousands of followers at the time. Surely there must have been something written of him other than unreliable pious fiction. Josephus comes to mind, but maybe that was fiction too. If He was a nobody, why did so many people write about him? Jews and Gentiles alike. They wrote of his death and crucifixion. Why was He sentenced to death if He was a nobody? Based on the factual nature of the Christ and history, evidence is pointing more toward the Gospels accuracy than away from it as a fictional document. Have you read the Gospels? Maybe you could be able to determine it's traditional Jewish accuracy.

I am an ex-Christian. The gospel writers show a poor knowledge of Judaism, the topography of Israel and general ignorance.

Jesus was put to death by the Romans according to the gospels and likely because he was seen as stirring sedition. Not even the Romans record this. Josephus only writes after the fact and he doesn't mention Jesus directly. Nobody contemporary with Jesus wrote about him and we don't even know who wrote the gospels. The gospels don't even agree with each other on main points, such as who went to and what happened at the tomb.

I'm sorry, but Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism. He just happened to be a Jew.

 

[danieldemol]

I should clarify. What I was trying to point in James was the process of how we obtain virtues. You pointed out a suffering process. In this case, James is directing if Any man lack wisdom (virtues) let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and denies them not. Because people rely so much on literalism, thinking that they could just ask and receive without any work on their part. The double-minded and unstable aspect is not supposed to be polemic or accusatory rather a guide to how we are to ask. We shouldn't waiver in faith, for those who waiver can't expect to achieve their desire in their prayers. Just like praying to lose weight. We can pray all we want to lose a couple pounds, but if, after our prayers we go straight to the kitchen and pull out a chocolate cake and down the whole thing, where is the profit of the prayer that was made. That is wavering. it is 'double-minded' because instead of focusing on God and his salvation from gluttony, they were thinking about the deliciousness of the cake; and 'unstable' because they wanted one thing but were contradicting the thing they wanted and therefore pointless. That looks like what James was referring to. I don't think he was pointing fingers, but he wanted people to know they can receive anything that is good if they start by asking and do so with faith and works. James 2:14

Aside from misreading the obvious intention of James 1:5-10 to polemicise those who don’t have faith, your example makes no sense. One may lose weight with or without faith in God, and one may obtain virtues with or without faith in God.

Faith in God is absolutely neutral to the acquisition of virtues.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Faith in God is absolutely neutral to the acquisition of virtues.

Ok it's a shame that you feel attacked by such a instructive and well intended scripture, and nothing is obvious in the scriptures, you should know that. But let's address the contradiction here. Faith in God has everything to do with acquisition of virtues. Where do virtues originate? Virtues don't come from man. They are gifts from Him who created them to man. Just as arms and legs are gifts to us to perform functions that give us joy, the same is with virtues. Faith in God is having faith in Salvation. That He will live up to his bargain if we will do what he wills. If you have no faith what is the point of obtaining virtue? Having faith in God is acknowledging that we cant do it on our own, in the end He will be the one to save us. He is the founder of our virtues and we need to believe and acknowledge that, otherwise we are lost.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

I am an ex-Christian. The gospel writers show a poor knowledge of Judaism, the topography of Israel and general ignorance.

Jesus was put to death by the Romans according to the gospels and likely because he was seen as stirring sedition. Not even the Romans record this. Josephus only writes after the fact and he doesn't mention Jesus directly. Nobody contemporary with Jesus wrote about him and we don't even know who wrote the gospels. The gospels don't even agree with each other on main points, such as who went to and what happened at the tomb.

I'm sorry, but Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism. He just happened to be a Jew.

Ok so you claim that Christ's story was blown out way out of proportion? Sort of like St. Nick and Santa Claus in the Christian tradition where people know more of the fantasy than the real person. I can you see where you get the idea, but apparently both Christian and Jewish scholars agree that Christ is very real. He was very popular in his day. I'm not sure where you can prove otherwise. To prove God doesnt exist is far harder to to prove he does. The same is with Christ. To say there He is a nobody historically or what is written, you will have to look over a lot of evidences to get that far. Even being a Jew.

 

[Rival]

Ok so you claim that Christ's story was blown out way out of proportion? Sort of like St. Nick and Santa Claus in the Christian tradition where people know more of the fantasy than the real person. I can you see where you get the idea, but apparently both Christian and Jewish scholars agree that Christ is very real. He was very popular in his day. I'm not sure where you can prove otherwise. To prove God doesnt exist is far harder to to prove he does. The same is with Christ. To say there He is a nobody historically or what is written, you will have to look over a lot of evidences to get that far. Even being a Jew.

Whether Jesus was real isn't really the problem. The problem is the gospels are, in our view, an untrustworthy account only written to make people believe in Jesus as the messiah (John even outright says this); this along with their misquotes of the Tanakh (Jewish Scriptures) and outright mistakes mean even if Jesus did exist, knowing what he said and did is impossible, and if he said and did what the gospels say he did, he would be a false prophet and no-one to be regarded or emulated.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Whether Jesus was real isn't really the problem. The problem is the gospels are, in our view, an untrustworthy account only written to make people believe in Jesus as the messiah (John even outright says this); this along with their misquotes of the Tanakh (Jewish Scriptures) and outright mistakes mean even if Jesus did exist, knowing what he said and did is impossible, and if he said and did what the gospels say he did, he would be a false prophet and no-one to be regarded or emulated.

So like I stated it seems it really is a question of how real is Jesus, according to what is written. You state the Gospels aren't a reliable source. Therefore, from actual reliable sources like the Tanakh he isn't mentioned as being a anybody or a nobody. I think I understand from your perspective a but I cant see this being the case for every Jew as mention in my previous post. It seems that Jews cannot fully prove that he was or wasnt the Messiah based on what is written and so they are just waiting to be given that answer. That is probably a closer assessment

 

[Rival]

So like I stated it seems it really is a question of how real is Jesus, according to what is written. You state the Gospels aren't a reliable source. Therefore, from actual reliable sources like the Tanakh he isn't mentioned as being a anybody or a nobody. I think I understand from your perspective a but I cant see this being the case for every Jew as mention in my previous post. It seems that Jews cannot fully prove that he was or wasnt the Messiah based on what is written and so they are just waiting to be given that answer. That is probably a closer assessment

We can prove he wasn't the messiah pretty easily.

None of the things associated with the Messiah and Messianic Age have happened. Simple.

I'm not sure why you're trying so hard to shoehorn Jesus into Judaism when he's just not there. That's why we are two separate religions. Jesus has nothing whatever to do with our faith, and I'm not sure what you are not understanding about this. Judaism had been around for thousands of years before Jesus and it is the same now.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Look everyone there are plenty of other places to engage in tribal arguments. Truth isn’t found in a top-down manner. It emerges when engaging with the world from a subjective, bottom-up manner. Don’t fall for the appeal of shortcuts. If you want the answers without doing the work, then you don’t get to have truth.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

I'm not sure why you're trying so hard to shoehorn Jesus into Judaism when he's just not there. That's why we are two separate religions. Jesus has nothing whatever to do with our faith, and I'm not sure what you are not understanding about this. Judaism had been around for thousands of years before Jesus and it is the same now.

I'm not trying to shoehorn anything or argue. It was well written in the Gospels and from other historical documents that Jesus was a Jew, that his audience were Jews and that He lived in Jerusalem. If you don't think that he has no significance as a Jew or your teaching than you and I have peace with that. I just wanted to know because I have a keenness in religion. When members of the same background tell you one thing and another, one wants to know what is the accepted belief. That is all. May God be with you in these times of uncertainty.