Theosis, Salvation, and Jesus

[Treasure Hunter]

Before I start this, it’s important to first note that life can be divided into two phases. The first phase is the survival phase. The second phase can be thought of as the phase of consciousness. I am focusing on this second phase. In other words, assume stability with regard to basic survival needs.

Some presuppositions or assumptions:

1. Assume God exists. I believe this assumption is inherent within consciousness even if we are not aware of it or deny it. Nevertheless, the point of what I am sharing is not to participate in a tribal theist-atheist argument but rather to resolve universal desires of consciousness.
2. If God exists, then God is reality. There is nothing more real than God. If something is more real than God, then that something IS God.
3. When consciousness is separated from reality, then there is susceptibility to chaos, suffering, and death. In Christian speak, sin is what separates us from God and/or the Kingdom of Heaven.
4. Consciousness desires life, love, and order rather than death, suffering, and chaos.

The goal then for consciousness is sustained union with reality, or with God. A word for this process is ‘Theosis’ which is the union of man and God. Another word for this is ‘salvation’.

If we are saved, then that means that we are in union with the Kingdom of Heaven. If we are not in union with the Kingdom of Heaven, then we are not saved. If we are saved, then that means our beliefs match with reality. If our beliefs don’t match reality, then we are not in Theosis.

We can only realize that we are not in Theosis when we perceive a disruption or disconnection which provides a jolt or tiny awakening of our consciousness. The realization of this disconnection is painful for us, so our initial impulse is to deny it by either distancing our awakened conscious awareness from it or by waiting for our conscious awareness to dissipate, so that we once again are basically unconscious and reabsorbed into the present moment.

The perceived disconnection causes a separation from our lived “world” and reality as well as a separation from the part of us that desires reality and the part that wants to avoid pain and stay unconscious. We were one but now we are two. So how do we actually resolve this? How do we attain salvation that doesn’t just mean temporarily avoiding the pain of separation but actually removing the separation in a way that sustains?

Our first attempt when we begin to consider the possibility that there may be a problem is to seek to rectify our belief system so that it better matches reality. We use our intellect and rationality to sift through new ideas in an effort to patch up the holes in our belief system. In the following teaching, Jesus rejects this approach as ineffective:

“No one tears a piece from a new garment and sews it on an old garment; otherwise the new will be torn, and the piece from the new will not match the old. 37 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. 38 But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. 39 And no one after drinking old wine desires new wine, but says, ‘The old is good.’”

In this explanation, garment and wine represent beliefs or belief systems. He is saying that we cannot simply rely on reason for Theosis. He calls for not just new wine but new wineskins. Further, he is hinting that in order for the new to replace the old, the old has to first be discarded. He is calling for not simply an editing of our belief systems but a full deconstruction.

If you can see the teachings of Jesus in this more extreme light, then you can begin to interpret his teachings in a deeper way. Repentance, rebirth, and resurrection all have new meanings when you understand and appreciate the level of deconstruction that Jesus hinted at.

In this thread, I am going to attempt to bring to light the deeper meanings of Jesus’ teachings, but I may also mix in other stories. It will be based on my own interpretations after going through numerous deconstructions. I believe it is our duty to help each other out with this stuff, so that we can eventually achieve Theosis and gradually bring forth the Kingdom.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I do not believe humans can do anything to bring forth the kingdom. This will be something God will do on his own schedule without human help.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

First, since it is Easter, I’m going share something I recently wrote. Remember, the idea is not to consume what I am sharing through the intellect, through rationality. Try to feel your way through it and track it based on your own intuitional experiences.


Resurrection: The Ultimate Solution

Assessing the Landscape:

Love can be broken down into three parts which are philia, agape, and eros.

Philia is associated with expansion. When we form relationships with others, that is philia.

Agape is associated with growth and manifestation. It is actualizing potential. When we take an idea and turn it into creation, that is agape.

Eros is associated with life. It is the meaning, fulfillment, and connection that we desire more of in our lives. We use philia and agape to bring about more eros.

We can view human behavior through this lens. For instance, take construction. The engineer comes together with workers (philia) to execute a plan (agape) in order to create a meaningful structure (eros).


The Problem:

Besides love and life, there is also chaos and death. Chaos exists internally within the individual as well as externally in the world. Chaos dominates the world, meaning the human individual is normally in eros deficiency. Further, the eros that we do experience diminishes through exposure. When we fall in love, the “honeymoon phase” only lasts so long, that piece of cake loses its spark of eros if we eat it everyday, and day three of the holiday get-away has lost the magic of day one.

When we realize our eros deficiency and attempt to resolve it by engaging the world, then we face even more chaos and can often times exacerbate the problem. This often leads to the gradual adoption of a conservative strategy in which we have our select few regular acquaintances (low philia) and go-to behaviors that provide meaning (low agape). We may have low eros, but we try to minimize chaos and therefore minimize the eros deficiency. It is the strategy of minimizing losses in a losing game.

Status has a key role in this game. If we increase our status, then we can simultaneously increase our eros across multiple points, at least for a period of time. Still, chaos and resistance serves as an obstacle to accomplishing this task.

The source of death and chaos can be personified into “the enemy”. As previously described, the enemy exists within the world but is also who we meet if we attempt to look for a solution outside of the world. The enemy provides us with his “fire” that he wants used for destruction. Also within that fire is the masculine. Together the masculine and the fire combine to form “the Will”.

The enemy gives us a free sample of his fire when we attempt to elevate our status and first meet resistance. The Will allows us to progress a little further until we ultimately hit another ceiling. The enemy is trying to seduce and recruit us with this free sample. What does the enemy want? He wants us to turn our backs on eros, use his fire to take us to the top of the status hierarchy, and then from there use the fire to destroy life.


Game A:

The first level response to this situation is to disassociate from the enemy and make the best of the conservative, minimize-losses approach. This person, in order to protect their self image as a “good” person, rejects most, if not all, invitations from the enemy. Incrementalism rules the day. Any aspirations for status increase are incremental. We can call this situation + response pattern Game A.


Game B:

There is another approach that we can call Game B. A Game B player rejects the idea of playing a losing game. They reject Game A. There are two main characteristics of a Game B player. The first is that they reject conservatism and incrementalism in that they desire for the most amount of eros that they can imagine. The second characteristic is that they trust in their ability to use philia + agape to bring about more eros.

This person has a similar initial reaction to the enemy as the Game A player does, but they make a second move. They decide that they are going to use their philia + agape against the enemy to create eros. They don’t know how they are going to do it, but they trust that they will figure out how along the way. In order to do this, they are willing to sacrifice their image as a “good” person, and are willing to be misunderstood and alienated by others for this.

The Game B player uses philia + agape to gain the trust of the enemy, earn more of his fire, and then turn his own weapon against him in order to create more life. To prove himself worthy to the enemy, he “fasts” from the world and turns his back on eros. He uses the amount of fire that he has already been given to destroy the meaning and connection that is present in his life. In other words, he intentionally puts himself in extreme eros deficiency. After this, the enemy entrusts him with more power which the Game B player will then turn on himself in order to use it against the chaos, or enemy, within.

If the Game B player is able to continue this process until the last bit of chaos within has been turn into eros, then there is a transformation point. This transformation point is The Resurrection.

Is this not what Jesus does in the Resurrection story? He lowers himself into death and then transforms death into more life. If you can follow all of this, then you can perhaps understand why Jesus didn’t say, “I was resurrected” or “I resurrected myself.” He said, “I AM the Resurrection and the life.”

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I do not believe humans can do anything to bring forth the kingdom. This will be something God will do on his own schedule without human help.

I would say that humanity cannot do it on its own and God cannot do it on his own. We are co-authors in the story and the story is incomplete.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I would say that humanity cannot do it on its own and God cannot do it on his own. We are co-authors in the story and the story is incomplete.

I prefer to think God does not need help.

 

[danieldemol]

Before I start this, it’s important to first note that life can be divided into two phases. The first phase is the survival phase. The second phase can be thought of as the phase of consciousness. I am focusing on this second phase. In other words, assume stability with regard to basic survival needs.

Some presuppositions or assumptions:

1. Assume God exists. I believe this assumption is inherent within consciousness even if we are not aware of it or deny it. Nevertheless, the point of what I am sharing is not to participate in a tribal theist-atheist argument but rather to resolve universal desires of consciousness.
2. If God exists, then God is reality. There is nothing more real than God. If something is more real than God, then that something IS God.
3. When consciousness is separated from reality, then there is susceptibility to chaos, suffering, and death. In Christian speak, sin is what separates us from God and/or the Kingdom of Heaven.
4. Consciousness desires life, love, and order rather than death, suffering, and chaos.

The goal then for consciousness is sustained union with reality, or with God. A word for this process is ‘Theosis’ which is the union of man and God. Another word for this is ‘salvation’.

If we are saved, then that means that we are in union with the Kingdom of Heaven. If we are not in union with the Kingdom of Heaven, then we are not saved. If we are saved, then that means our beliefs match with reality. If our beliefs don’t match reality, then we are not in Theosis.

We can only realize that we are not in Theosis when we perceive a disruption or disconnection which provides a jolt or tiny awakening of our consciousness. The realization of this disconnection is painful for us, so our initial impulse is to deny it by either distancing our awakened conscious awareness from it or by waiting for our conscious awareness to dissipate, so that we once again are basically unconscious and reabsorbed into the present moment.

The perceived disconnection causes a separation from our lived “world” and reality as well as a separation from the part of us that desires reality and the part that wants to avoid pain and stay unconscious. We were one but now we are two. So how do we actually resolve this? How do we attain salvation that doesn’t just mean temporarily avoiding the pain of separation but actually removing the separation in a way that sustains?

Our first attempt when we begin to consider the possibility that there may be a problem is to seek to rectify our belief system so that it better matches reality. We use our intellect and rationality to sift through new ideas in an effort to patch up the holes in our belief system. In the following teaching, Jesus rejects this approach as ineffective:

“No one tears a piece from a new garment and sews it on an old garment; otherwise the new will be torn, and the piece from the new will not match the old. 37 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. 38 But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. 39 And no one after drinking old wine desires new wine, but says, ‘The old is good.’”

In this explanation, garment and wine represent beliefs or belief systems. He is saying that we cannot simply rely on reason for Theosis. He calls for not just new wine but new wineskins. Further, he is hinting that in order for the new to replace the old, the old has to first be discarded. He is calling for not simply an editing of our belief systems but a full deconstruction.

If you can see the teachings of Jesus in this more extreme light, then you can begin to interpret his teachings in a deeper way. Repentance, rebirth, and resurrection all have new meanings when you understand and appreciate the level of deconstruction that Jesus hinted at.

In this thread, I am going to attempt to bring to light the deeper meanings of Jesus’ teachings, but I may also mix in other stories. It will be based on my own interpretations after going through numerous deconstructions. I believe it is our duty to help each other out with this stuff, so that we can eventually achieve Theosis and gradually bring forth the Kingdom.

If we reject the intellect and rationality in our attempt to achieve Theosis, what tool/s do you propose we use?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

If we reject the intellect and rationality in our attempt to achieve Theosis, what tool/s do you propose we use?

We have to maintain a persona that keeps us connected to the world that operates within a belief system and uses rationality, but the truth seeking part of us that lurks in the background uses intuition. It’s not something we have to try to figure out how to do. When we reject rationality, intuition will emerge.

It’s like feeling around in a dark room. We won’t rely on it unless we decide that we can’t see and close our eyes.

 

[danieldemol]

We have to maintain a persona that keeps us connected to the world that operates within a belief system and uses rationality, but the truth seeking part of us that lurks in the background uses intuition. It’s not something we have to try to figure out how to do. When we reject rationality, intuition will emerge.

It’s like feeling around in a dark room. We won’t rely on it unless we decide that we can’t see and close our eyes.

We can have a persona that keeps us connected to the world that does not operate within a belief system and uses rationality just as effectively.

As for intuition, the intuition you have that Jesus is uniquely able to deliver salvation is not one shared by all. My intuition suggests that in as much as a lack of virtue is what keeps one seperate from salvation, addressing that by character development solves the root cause of the problem, and this is feasible with or without Jesus.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

We can have a persona that keeps us connected to the world that does not operate within a belief system and uses rationality just as effectively.

As for intuition, the intuition you have that Jesus is uniquely able to deliver salvation is not one shared by all. My intuition suggests that in as much as a lack of virtue is what keeps one seperate from salvation, addressing that by character development solves the root cause of the problem, and this is feasible with or without Jesus.

The reason why we don’t push through the resistance of detaching from rationality is that we get thrown into a place in which we have to start accepting our feelings of betrayal. The next time you are in a bad mood and start to feel a general underlying victimhood, hold on to the feeling and don’t allow yourself to release back into a false position of comfort with the world.

 

[danieldemol]

The reason why we don’t push through the resistance of detaching from rationality is that we get thrown into a place in which we have to start accepting our feelings of betrayal. The next time you are in a bad mood and start to feel a general underlying victimhood, hold on to the feeling and don’t allow yourself to release back into a false position of comfort with the world.

I have no idea of how this relates to what I said, but that being said, I feel holding onto a sense of being a victim is not a generally healthy thing to do.

You might find this blog from psychology today interesting in this regard Are You Ready to Stop Feeling Like a Victim?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I have no idea of how this relates to what I said, but that being said, I feel holding onto a sense of being a victim is not a generally healthy thing to do.

You might find this blog from psychology today interesting in this regard Are You Ready to Stop Feeling Like a Victim?

I agree with you that we don’t want to identify with being a victim. I’m speaking to the underlying feeling of betrayal that is causing it. That feeling of betrayal is “true”. We don’t want to allow ourselves to escape from it back into unconsciousness and comfort. It’s necessary to continually engage that feeling of betrayal.

 

[danieldemol]

I agree with you that we don’t want to identify with being a victim. I’m speaking to the underlying feeling of betrayal that is causing it. That feeling of betrayal is “true”. We don’t want to allow ourselves to escape from it back into unconsciousness and comfort. It’s necessary to continually engage that feeling of betrayal.

I have no feeling of betrayal. I have a faithful God, a faithful wife, a faithful family etc. Why should I go from a deep feeling of satisfaction to feeling betrayed?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I have no feeling of betrayal. I have a faithful God, a faithful wife, a faithful family etc. Why should I go from a deep feeling of satisfaction to feeling betrayed?

If you can’t see that it is more true or if part of you recognizes that it is more true but is avoiding the resistance of that path, then you won’t do it.

 

[danieldemol]

If you can’t see that it is more true or if part of you recognizes that it is more true but is avoiding the resistance of that path, then you won’t do it.

I vote part a) Can't see that a sense of betrayal is more true

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I vote part a) Can't see that a sense of betrayal is more true

Life always gives us another chance to see it since pain never ceases. Another trick that resistance will use to blind us from seeing it: It will try to keep it situational rather than general, meaning it will try to tell the story that the feeling is only present due to what triggered it, and that it is not underlying and sustained.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

1. Assume God exists. I believe this assumption is inherent within consciousness even if we are not aware of it or deny it. Nevertheless, the point of what I am sharing is not to participate in a tribal theist-atheist argument but rather to resolve universal desires of consciousness.
2. If God exists, then God is reality. There is nothing more real than God. If something is more real than God, then that something IS God.
3. When consciousness is separated from reality, then there is susceptibility to chaos, suffering, and death. In Christian speak, sin is what separates us from God and/or the Kingdom of Heaven.
4. Consciousness desires life, love, and order rather than death, suffering, and chaos.

The goal then for consciousness is sustained union with reality, or with God. A word for this process is ‘Theosis’ which is the union of man and God. Another word for this is ‘salvation’.

If we are saved, then that means that we are in union with the Kingdom of Heaven. If we are not in union with the Kingdom of Heaven, then we are not saved. If we are saved, then that means our beliefs match with reality. If our beliefs don’t match reality, then we are not in Theosis.

Because the rules are in place here, I want to clarify. Theoretically speaking in the purest sense of 'theosis' we are stating a complete absorption of reality or in other words, becoming as God is? Not more but as He is? Interesting assessment. Perhaps you have considered religious pursuits for these claims? or are you self-motivated to help others understand these things without any religious attachments? I see that you use Christian terminology most, yet your approach is almost philosophical.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

As for intuition, the intuition you have that Jesus is uniquely able to deliver salvation is not one shared by all. My intuition suggests that in as much as a lack of virtue is what keeps one seperate from salvation, addressing that by character development solves the root cause of the problem, and this is feasible with or without Jesus.

Theoretically, there should never be a mindset that with our without anything character development is feasible. Sure without shoes you might still be able to run a marathon, but is it really feasible? Without Christ and His teachings, which are not just teachings for Christians but shared throughout many religious sects, we may think we have other fountains to draw off of, but the ideas of character development found in Christ teachings are unprecedented and which is why the majority of religious parties regard him as possibly the most influential character of their beliefs. Salvation is God's alone. Why would man want to save himself without God? Save himself from what? After this life, there is death, and what control would men have at that point. As far as I can tell, no control. Either they go forever in nothingness, or saved by an external source that abide by principles greater than their own. I mean if its a matter of only physical preservation, than yes please keep the ten commandments so that you wouldn't be thrown in jail and/or unhappy for the rest of your life. That merits something, but what really matters is whether salvation is possible after this mortality.

 

[danieldemol]

Theoretically, there should never be a mindset that with our without anything character development is feasible. Sure without shoes you might still be able to run a marathon, but is it really feasible? Without Christ and His teachings, which are not just teachings for Christians but shared throughout many religious sects, we may think we have other fountains to draw off of, but the ideas of character development found in Christ teachings are unprecedented and which is why the majority of religious parties regard him as possibly the most influential character of their beliefs. Salvation is God's alone. Why would man want to save himself without God? Save himself from what? After this life, there is death, and what control would men have at that point. As far as I can tell, no control. Either they go forever in nothingness, or saved by an external source that abide by principles greater than their own. I mean if its a matter of only physical preservation, than yes please keep the ten commandments so that you wouldn't be thrown in jail and/or unhappy for the rest of your life. That merits something, but what really matters is whether salvation is possible after this mortality.

A person who has developed their character has developed the necessary shoes to run the marathon of salvation.

The majority of religious parties? Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc have others they consdier the most influential.

The ideas of Christ unprecedented? Name an idea he had that was unprecedented in Jewish thought.

Salvation is God's alone and that is precisely why we must make ourselves worthy of God's salvation through character development, as God is unlikely to hand out salvation to those who eschew virtue.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

A person who has developed their character has developed the necessary shoes to run the marathon of salvation.

The majority of religious parties? Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc have others they consdier the most influential.

The ideas of Christ unprecedented? Name an idea he had that was unprecedented in Jewish thought.

Salvation is God's alone and that is precisely why we must make ourselves worthy of God's salvation through character development, as God is unlikely to hand out salvation to those who eschew virtue.

Ok. Maybe that is something you are going to have to ask Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists because as far as I am aware mainstream Jews and Muslims consider Jesus as one of or if not the greatest prophet in there teachings. Particularly Muslims have a deep admiration for Him and Quran has many passages written about Him. Hindus and Buddhists may not regard him central to there beliefs, but modern Buddhists and Hindus acknowledge his wisdom as Christians acknowledge Ghandi's or Buddahs teachings, and we take from their teachings.

Yes unprecedented. The whole reason Jesus was killed by the Jews was because his ideas were unprecedented. No longer were people required to follow Mosaic Law anymore, where the strictness demanded and eye for an eye tooth for a tooth, Christ told them that love and respect for your neighbor defeated this law. All of Matthew 5 addresses Christ teachings as opposed to the Jewish thought.

I don't know if 'hand out salvation' is what you are going for, and if it is; Do you believe that salvation is just like a ticket to heaven that God gives out? If so, how many tickets does he have? Can anyone be guaranteed one or is it by the luck of the draw depending on how many raffles you entered by your character development? Where do I find the rules to submitting an entry? Sorry I don't want to be coy, I have researched many religions and I want to know what salvation means to you and how it's attainable.

 

[danieldemol]

Ok. Maybe that is something you are going to have to ask Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists because as far as I am aware mainstream Jews and Muslims consider Jesus as one of or if not the greatest prophet in there teachings. Particularly Muslims have a deep admiration for Him and Quran has many passages written about Him. Hindus and Buddhists may not regard him central to there beliefs, but modern Buddhists and Hindus acknowledge his wisdom as Christians acknowledge Ghandi's or Buddahs teachings, and we take from their teachings.

Mainstream Jews do not consider Jesus as the greatest Prophet in their teachings, where are you getting your misinformation from? Muslims consider Muhammad the greatest Prophet.

Yes unprecedented. The whole reason Jesus was killed by the Jews was because his ideas were unprecedented. No longer were people required to follow Mosaic Law anymore, where the strictness demanded and eye for an eye tooth for a tooth, Christ told them that love and respect for your neighbor defeated this law. All of Matthew 5 addresses Christ teachings as opposed to the Jewish thought.

I don't think that all of Matthew 5 is opposed to Jewish thought, but I agree that the point of turning the other cheek is unique to Christianity.

I don't know if 'hand out salvation' is what you are going for, and if it is; Do you believe that salvation is just like a ticket to heaven that God gives out? If so, how many tickets does he have? Can anyone be guaranteed one or is it by the luck of the draw depending on how many raffles you entered by your character development? Where do I find the rules to submitting an entry? Sorry I don't want to be coy, I have researched many religions and I want to know what salvation means to you and how it's attainable.

I consider salvation more like as follows:
In the womb world of the mother we develop the attributes we need when we are born into this world (ie hands, legs, eyes etc). If we fail to develop these attributes in the womb world we will be born physically handicapped. In like manner, in this womb world (ie the physical world) if we do not develop the attributes (ie the character attributes) we need for the spirtual world, we will find ourselves born into the spiritual world at death handicapped. Even so, I believe the Mercy of God is so great that God will eventually complete those spiritually handicapped, allowing them to eventually develop in the spiritual world, but they will suffer for a time for being born spiritually handicapped.