Theism and Uncertainty

[Joe Mechanico]

I'm a writer working on what I call the Peace Story, and I have a question for theists. It seems to me that Pope Francis is a theist, that he believes in a supreme being. But I don't hear him "quote" God, and he does not seem to interpret the Bible as the literal Word of God. He looks to nature, and respects the tool of science to help understand his God better. He does not seem to treat doubt as a sin. Contrast this with another theist -

“Even to express doubts about this doctrine, al-Wahhab said, should occasion execution.”

I am an atheist because I do not believe in a supreme being. I am also agnostic, because I do not know the truth. I am a pantheist, more or less, because my God is Reality, my Creator, to which I am grateful for this turn upon the field of play. Pope Francis is a theist, but it seems he must also be agnostic. I am at peace with Pope Francis, because we share uncertainty and gratitude for our existence. It seems to me that Pope Francis, a theist, and I, an atheist, are very close, because the WORDS of God do not stand between us. My question to theists -

How important are the words of God to you, and why?

 

[George-ananda]

How important are the words of God to you, and why?

Infinitely important. I believe God is the animator in all of us. And I believe there are advanced souls that are far closer to their source than I. The words of these saints/sages/seers are the most important thing in the universe to me.

(coming from a pantheistic Hindu perspective)

 

[allfoak]

The words are the language of the soul.
They are a catalyst to connecting with one's soul.
Consequently, they have a different meaning for everyone who reads them.
When people try and teach their way of thinking as being the truth, the words get in the way.

It seems the Pope is more interested in creating a one world religion governed by people like himself.

 

[Joe Mechanico]

Infinitely important. I believe God is the animator in all of us. And I believe there are advanced souls that are far closer to their source than I. The words of these saints/sages/seers are the most important thing in the universe to me.

(coming from a pantheistic Hindu perspective)

Lao Tzu opens the Tao Te Ching with the disclaimer - The word that can be spoken is not the true word. It seems to me that that reality is outside of words, and that when we claim words to be true, we are in fact claiming we are infallibly capable of knowing the truth. I am not trying to be an jerk, but this seems to be a key element in human conflict. I want to understand it better. Do you have any concern that the "infinitely important" words of God are not really God's, but yours?

 

[Joe Mechanico]

The words are the language of the soul.
They are a catalyst to connecting with one's soul.
Consequently, they have a different meaning for everyone who reads them.
When people try and teach their way of thinking as being the truth, the words get in the way.

It seems the Pope is more interested in creating a one world religion governed by people like himself.

I like this, though disagree about what the Pope is up to. Do you think it is possible for a person to know the truth? How likely is it that someone who knows the truth might be wrong?

 

[George-ananda]

Lao Tzu opens the Tao Te Ching with the disclaimer - The word that can be spoken is not the true word. It seems to me that that reality is outside of words, and that when we claim words to be true, we are in fact claiming we are infallibly capable of knowing the truth.

Yes, the words of the masters are pointers to what is beyond words. I was saying without pointers I would be hopelessly lost having to figure it all out from zero.

I am not trying to be an jerk,

You are a scholarly gentlemen compared to many on this forum.

but this seems to be a key element in human conflict. I want to understand it better. Do you have any concern that the "infinitely important" words of God are not really God's, but yours?

They are definitely not my words, I would never have created the understanding the Hindu sages have given us on my own; i.e. the Bahgavad Gita, etc.. And yes after careful and thorough consideration I believe these sages have experienced reality closer to the source than I and I respect and revere their words.

 

[Joe Mechanico]

Yes, the words of the masters are pointers to what is beyond words. I was saying without pointers I would be hopelessly lost having to figure it all out from zero.


You are a scholarly gentlemen compared to many on this forum.


They are definitely not my words, I would never have created the understanding the Hindu sages have given us on my own; i.e. the Bahgavad Gita, etc.. And yes after careful and thorough consideration I believe these sages have experienced reality closer to the source than I and I respect and revere their words.

Ah, I understand better now. We are not so far apart. I also have greatly benefited from teachers whose wisdom was beyond my understanding. In this respect, I would agree that what I learned through their words was infinitely important to me. Thank you for your words

 

[allfoak]

I like this, though disagree about what the Pope is up to. Do you think it is possible for a person to know the truth? How likely is it that someone who knows the truth might be wrong?

First we have to know for what it is that we search in order to know if it has been found.

 

[Joe Mechanico]

First we have to know for what it is that we search in order to know if it has been found.

Maybe. A couple of decades ago I came up with an idea I called "The Uncertainty Principle," that we cannot be wise enough to know where to seek that knowledge we most need to find. It seemed that the most valuable things I learned, I stumbled upon by accident. I grew up turning over rocks to see what was under them, and escalated to the game of Jump Point, the heaving of my life into uncertainty to trigger the phenomena of epiphany, when I was 18. This is a process I have learned much from that I value greatly. On the other hand, more than once, it almost killed me.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Christ is the Word of God, truly, not the Bible.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I'm a writer working on what I call the Peace Story, and I have a question for theists. It seems to me that Pope Francis is a theist, that he believes in a supreme being. But I don't hear him "quote" God, and he does not seem to interpret the Bible as the literal Word of God. He looks to nature, and respects the tool of science to help understand his God better. He does not seem to treat doubt as a sin. Contrast this with another theist -

“Even to express doubts about this doctrine, al-Wahhab said, should occasion execution.”

I am an atheist because I do not believe in a supreme being. I am also agnostic, because I do not know the truth. I am a pantheist, more or less, because my God is Reality, my Creator, to which I am grateful for this turn upon the field of play. Pope Francis is a theist, but it seems he must also be agnostic. I am at peace with Pope Francis, because we share uncertainty and gratitude for our existence. It seems to me that Pope Francis, a theist, and I, an atheist, are very close, because the WORDS of God do not stand between us. My question to theists -

How important are the words of God to you, and why?

What if the words of God are written in nature and can be read using the tool of science?

 

[Joe Mechanico]

Christ is the Word of God, truly, not the Bible.

A long time ago, I was trapped in a place I consider living hell, the selfish heart and certain mind of what I now call the Monster Punisher. I was killing mad for one long year, and because I would not punish my enemy, my monster was punishing me. It was poisoning me from the inside out, and I can easily understand how death mike seem a welcome escape from such a place. I would be happy, then I would remember, and spiral down into rage. Finally, I used the only exit I could find, what I call the Jesus Escape. I forgave my enemy, and in one moment, my heart lifted, and I was free. From a place of greater clarity I could see how I was at least partially responsible for the events I was so furious about, and how that had been concealed by my anger. I owe Jesus a big one. He is my favorite Hero.

Jesus is a great man to me. I think that when we claim to know which words are God's words and which words are not,we are claiming to be the mouth from which God speaks, and the hand with which God writes. God is outside of words, and I believe that when we try to bind God inside of words, and commit him to a contract he must fulfill, we do so for our own benefit, to ease our fears of uncertainty. I am a "Grateful Seeker." I try to remember to be grateful for this turn upon the field of play, rather than fearful of its limitation. I do not seek heaven, I seek to repay what I have already received.

 

[Joe Mechanico]

A long time ago, I was trapped in a place I consider living hell, the selfish heart and certain mind of what I now call the Monster Punisher. I was killing mad for one long year, and because I would not punish my enemy, my monster was punishing me. It was poisoning me from the inside out, and I can easily understand how death mike seem a welcome escape from such a place. I would be happy, then I would remember, and spiral down into rage. Finally, I used the only exit I could find, what I call the Jesus Escape. I forgave my enemy, and in one moment, my heart lifted, and I was free. From a place of greater clarity I could see how I was at least partially responsible for the events I was so furious about, and how that had been concealed by my anger. I owe Jesus a big one. He is my favorite Hero.

Jesus is a great man to me. I think that when we claim to know which words are God's words and which words are not,we are claiming to be the mouth from which God speaks, and the hand with which God writes. God is outside of words, and I believe that when we try to bind God inside of words, and commit him to a contract he must fulfill, we do so for our own benefit, to ease our fears of uncertainty. I am a "Grateful Seeker." I try to remember to be grateful for this turn upon the field of play, rather than fearful of its limitation. I do not seek heaven, I seek to repay what I have already received.

Off to work. I will return later.

 

[Joe Mechanico]

What if the words of God are written in nature and can be read using the tool of science?

Yes, I like this. I don't know the truth, and my search begins with the evidence of nature. I would suggest that if we are to seek to understand God, we should seek him in those works that require no byline. I also am in awe of nature, and I have great respect for the tool of science

 

[Reflex]

One of my favorite quotes comes from The Cloud of Unknowing: "By love He may be gotten and holden; by thought, never." (Compare that with Taoism)

Sola scriptura (scripture only) and literalism are NOT a tenants of Catholicism; that's pretty much confined to Islam (where you quote comes from) and Protestantism.

 

[Joe Mechanico]

One of my favorite quotes comes from The Cloud of Unknowing: "By love He may be gotten and holden; by thought, never." (Compare that with Taoism)

Sola scriptura (scripture only) and literalism are NOT a tenants of Catholicism; that's pretty much confined to Islam (where you quote comes from) and Protestantism.

I looked up Hegel. Thanks for the lead. In my youth, I was searching for the right answer, which I called "Largest Place." (Largest Story)

1) Where you stand controls what you see.
2) What you see controls how you act.
3) How you act controls the consequences of those actions.

After finding Largest Place, again and again, I realized two things -

1) Every time I found it, I was sure I had finally found Largest Place.
2) I had become addicted to the game of searching for it and was always postpartum after I found it.

Then a crack would appear between what I was seeing and what I expected to see, and I could smell larger place seeping in. I would leap to my feet and shout - "The game's afoot!"

So, like many others, in a very natural way I turned my life to study the process of "evolving" my right answer. Like Hegel, if I am understanding what he is saying, movement from stage one to stage three requires passage through stage two, the threshold of uncertainty. If you cannot cross this threshold, you cannot evolve. Uncertainty can be very frightening, and for this reason, many people have limited experience with evolving. Even worse, there are vested interests who own "true stories." They well understand that uncertainty is the only exit. As you say, there are those in both Christianity and Islam who work this scam. Certainty is a mental illness that occurs naturally. It is also intentionally propagated by those who profit from it, and those who have contracted it. Ironically, those who are seduced into consuming the fruit from the tree of knowledge are driven to seduce others, their children in particular, into eating the fruit.

"By love He may be gotten and holden; by thought, never."

I like this. I know it is cliche, but I want to pull up the "half full, half empty" meme. It is a choice of the heart to be grateful for what we have be given, or resentful of its limitations. I observe God as a stimulus, hypothesize a response, test my hypothesis, experience my consequences, try to learn from my experience, and share what I have learned. Sometimes it hurts. Someday I'll die. I once heard Joseph Campbell tell the story of a Chinese farmer who underwent a series of reversals of fortune, and whose response in each case was -

"Who can say what is good and what is bad?"

I choose to be grateful for what I have been given. I choose to be a seeker of the truth. In my religion, it is the grateful heart that motivates the hero to help the people solve their problems, and it is the seeking mind that enables them to work the solution process. A selfish heart will never undertake the Hero's Journey, and a certain mind cannot work the solution process.

 

[Reflex]

Here are a couple of audio only videos about Hegel's philosophy:

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I'm a writer working on what I call the Peace Story, and I have a question for theists. It seems to me that Pope Francis is a theist, that he believes in a supreme being. But I don't hear him "quote" God, and he does not seem to interpret the Bible as the literal Word of God. He looks to nature, and respects the tool of science to help understand his God better. He does not seem to treat doubt as a sin. Contrast this with another theist -

“Even to express doubts about this doctrine, al-Wahhab said, should occasion execution.”

I am an atheist because I do not believe in a supreme being. I am also agnostic, because I do not know the truth. I am a pantheist, more or less, because my God is Reality, my Creator, to which I am grateful for this turn upon the field of play. Pope Francis is a theist, but it seems he must also be agnostic. I am at peace with Pope Francis, because we share uncertainty and gratitude for our existence. It seems to me that Pope Francis, a theist, and I, an atheist, are very close, because the WORDS of God do not stand between us. My question to theists -

How important are the words of God to you, and why?

I feel like the Pope is interpreted to fit whatever people like, much unlike the previous Pope who was interpreted to fit whatever people didn't like.

Pope Francis has often warned about the Devil, he warns about it pretty frequently actually, and has also quoted Jesus and clearly taught about Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, about how He has redeemed the sins of the world, etc. Not to mention in his homilies he frequently teaches directly from the Bible, treating it as the truth.

The Pope agrees with traditional Church teaching against gay marriage and abortion, and seems to be for all intents and purposes an orthodox Catholic when it comes to Church doctrine.

 

[JesusFreaKMyHero1]

I'm a writer working on what I call the Peace Story, and I have a question for theists. It seems to me that Pope Francis is a theist, that he believes in a supreme being. But I don't hear him "quote" God, and he does not seem to interpret the Bible as the literal Word of God. He looks to nature, and respects the tool of science to help understand his God better. He does not seem to treat doubt as a sin. Contrast this with another theist -

“Even to express doubts about this doctrine, al-Wahhab said, should occasion execution.”

I am an atheist because I do not believe in a supreme being. I am also agnostic, because I do not know the truth. I am a pantheist, more or less, because my God is Reality, my Creator, to which I am grateful for this turn upon the field of play. Pope Francis is a theist, but it seems he must also be agnostic. I am at peace with Pope Francis, because we share uncertainty and gratitude for our existence. It seems to me that Pope Francis, a theist, and I, an atheist, are very close, because the WORDS of God do not stand between us. My question to theists -



How important are the words of God to you, and why?[/QUOTE

I'm not trying to be rude, I just want to understand you. How do you put it all together, in your mind?

Well I believe John 1:1-5. They are everything to me. A guide to life, to reveal his nature to us and express His Love. I feel you have to believe the whole Bible or none of it. Just my opinion. What about you? How do you feel?

Well although Catholisism is considered Christian. There are a lot of significant differences. I mean why do we need a priest to talk to God? I don't really pay much attention to him. They hold the Pope up in such high esteem. I mean he's an ordinary pastor reverend or preacher to me. Maybe he's the Anti-Christ?
Makes me wonder why the Catholics and Prodestants are still fighting one another in Ireland and Mexico...it seems silly to me.