Their worst nightmare.

[Nehustan]

Former Mossad chief: Muslim majority in Europe in 40 years.

"By the mid century many cities in Germany and parts of the former Soviet Union countries will have a Muslim majority," warned on Sunday the former head of the Mossad Efraim Halevi, in a speech in Haifa University.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3258679,00.html

general feel to the man, you may want to read...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/QA.jhtml?qaNo=125​

 

[Nehustan]

My questions are really, what would happen with an Islamic Europe? How would this effect the Mid East? I actually can see it happening, tho' rather, as I think is proposed, from immigrants having lots of dark Muslim babies, actually by native 'white' educated (and let's not forget despite of the social constraints placed upon the white working class and even the growing 'underclass', most of them are highly literate and educated when viewed in a global context) people seeing the truth of Islam and reverting. There is of course a great amount of unseen plans for what I like to refer to as 'The European Caliphate' (I have submitted a couple of articles that have contributory factors woven into them), and certainly the plans spread as far as KGB HQ during the cold war, and may now be moving eastward. Let us propose that 'The Asian Caliphate' is no less likely. Thoughts?

 

[Nehustan]

Actually I have just been thinking about this. I think people would posit that this is not possible, but on further thinking about 'European' and 'Asian' Caliphates (and of course one must not forget Africa ) it would seem that what is today known as Russia would become a real hub. I placed a few articles in the politics thread on the Caucasas (Central Asia)....

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33664​

...and if one considers Russia (and of course its resources) it would be almost a cross roads between East and West, South and North (tho obviously when one considers Africa the Arabic peninsula would also be key). Anyone wanting to buy into an investment bank long term would do well to look at Russia ​

 

[TashaN]

I read once that the muslims in Rusia are increasing and they might be the majority by now but they didn't give the excact number yet.

 

[Nehustan]

lol....a post that jumps from thread to thread....LOL

 

[Nehustan]

Well historically the arrival of Christianity in Russia only just happened before the spread of Islam out of the Peninsula, a slightly different progression of history, and Russia would have always been Muslim. What we now call Russia was relatively a late comer to 'Christendom'.

 

[Ody]

My questions are really, what would happen with an Islamic Europe?

Depends on how the muslims are treated and what path islam takes in europe.

 

[kai]

isnt he talking about the central asian states (thread jumping multi tasking)

 

[Ody]

((In Regards to germany))

 

[Nehustan]

Depends on how the muslims are treated and what path islam takes in europe.

Of course Halevi's comment is in no way meant to play on fears of native Europeans....lol. It is done out of concern for how the Muslims might be treated. Of course when the Muslims are white, blond/brown haired, with brown/hazel/green/or blue eyes, and family trees that go back generations, I'm not really sure they will have anything to worry about. We in turn will act as 'Al Ansar', to our 'Al Muhajiroon' brothers

 

[Nehustan]

I recall a conversation in work about 5 years ago, it went something along the lines of....

Nehsustan : 'I imagine that in 100 years Islam may well be the religion of the West, and a Quran in a house will be as common as a bible today.'

Colleague: 'That will never happen.'

Manager: 'Why do you say that?'

Colleague: ' Well its a from the Middle East and foreign to Europeans.'

Manager : 'Ok, but there is a precedent.'

Colleague: 'What precedent?'

Manager: 'The Christianisation of pagan Europe.'

Nehustan: ***smiles***

 

[Nehustan]

I was looking for an article in today's Guardian which I know is in there somewhere, but instead found this from 2004. Still very interesting so I'll add it here...


Islamic Britain lures top people

Nicholas Hellen and Christopher Morgan

MORE than 14,000 white Britons have converted to Islam after becoming disillusioned with western values, according to the first authoritative study of the phenomenon.

Some of Britain’s top landowners, celebrities and the offspring of senior Establishment figures have embraced the strict tenets of the Muslim faith. The trend s being encouraged by Muslim leaders who are convinced that the conversion of prominent society figures will help protect a community stigmatised by terrorism and fundamentalism.

Zaki Badawi, chairman of the Imams and Mosques Council, said: “The community has been unfairly targeted and these developments encourage it in a time of difficulty.” Meanwhile, the Muslim Council of Britain has co-opted Joe Ahmed-Dobson, son of Frank Dobson, the former health secretary, to chair its regeneration committee.
The new study by Yahya (formerly Jonathan) Birt, son of Lord Birt, former director-general of the BBC, provides the first reliable data on the sensitive subject of the movement of Christians into Islam. He uses a breakdown of the latest census figures to conclude that there are now 14,200 white converts in Britain.

Speaking publicly for the first time about his faith this weekend, Birt, whose doctorate at Oxford University is on young British Muslims, argued that an inspirational figure, similar to the American convert Malcolm X for Afro-Caribbeans, would first have to emerge if the next stage, a mass conversion among white Britons, were to happen.

“You need great transitional figures to translate something alien (like Islam) into the vernacular,” he said. “The image of Islam projected by political Islamic movements is not very attractive.”

Initially, Birt said, he had no coherent reasons for converting, but: “In the longer term I think it was the overall profundity, balance and coherence and spirituality of the Muslim way of life which convinced me.”

The faith has made inroads into the Establishment. It emerged this weekend that the great-granddaughter of a British prime minister has converted. Emma Clark, whose ancestor, the Liberal prime minister Herbert Asquith, took Britain into the first world war, said: “We’re all the rage, I hope it’s not a passing fashion.” Clark, who helped design an Islamic garden for the Prince of Wales at Highgrove, his Gloucestershire home, is now helping create a similar garden for a mosque in Woking, Surrey, on the site of a car park.

Many converts have been inspired by the writings of Charles Le Gai Eaton, a former Foreign Office diplomat. Eaton, author of Islam and the Destiny of Man, said: “I have received letters from people who are put off by the wishy-washy standards of contemporary Christianity and they are looking for a religion which does not compromise too much with the modern world.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1010553,00.html​

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I wonder what Islam would do for British humor.

Can there be a Muslim Monty Pithon?

 

[Nehustan]

Well although funny, Python it is verging on slapstick and a little puerile. I'm sure there would still be plenty of humour, tho' most might miss it (they do at the moment so no change there!!!), humour delivered dead pan is often taken a serious commentary.

 

[Khalid Muhammad]

I loved this picture, and the tower is only a little way from the site of martrydom of de Molay and de Charnay. I suppose it has taken them 700 years, but they begin to get the idea...

​

The West and Islam
Tales from Eurabia

Jun 22nd 2006
From The Economist print edition
Contrary to fears on both sides of the Atlantic, integrating Europe's Muslims can be done.

"...Two years ago, the White House's favourite Arabist scholar, Bernard Lewis, gave a warning that Europe would turn Muslim by the end of this century, becoming “part of the Arab West, the Maghreb”. Now there is a plethora of books with titles like “While Europe Slept” and “Menace in Europe”.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7086222​

I guess all I can say is...

"A spectre is haunting Europe...."​

 

[Khalid Muhammad]

Muslims in Russia
Mosque and state.

Tsarist Russia used Muslim notables to shore up the state. Despite the Chechen war, a similar entente is not inconceivable, even now.

WHEN the ruler of a multinational em­pire bases his authority on one great religion, how many other religions can the empire - and indeed, the emperor - accommodate, and then turn into an instrument of power? The Ottoman sultans, when faced with this question, found a ready-made answer in Islamic theology. As "people of the book" with common roots in the holy texts of the Abrahamic tradition, Christians and Jews were to be treated with respect—though not on a par with followers of the predominant Muslim faith-so long as they remained loyal to the empire.

The Russian tsars, who derived a big part of their mystique and authority from being anointed Christian monarchs— indeed, the only Orthodox Christian emperors in the world after the fall of Byzantium faced a similar dilemma: how to present themselves, and legitimise their realm, in the eyes of their Muslim subjects.

To the discomfiture of the Russian Orthodox clergy, the Tsarist regime's response was pragmatic; it had no qualms about demanding loyalty from Muslims in the name of Allah and his Prophet. In the 1860s, when Russian commanders swept through Central Asia, they skilfully played the Muslim card.

The Russian authorities knew they had to compete for the loyalty of their Muslim subjects against rival powers which were part of Dor al-Islam, the area where Islam prevailed. In this task repression alone would not suffice. The Russian state felt it must co-operate actively with at least some Muslim leaders in support of commonly agreed goals, such as social peace and respect for family obligations.

The attractions of a concordat between Russian nationalists and Muslims are still a factor in the Kremlin's calculations, even in a Russia which this week was rejoicing over the assassination of a Muslim Chechen warlord, Shamil Basayev (see page 92). To this day there are some Muslim leaders in Russia, such as Talgat Tajuddin, the mufti pictured above with President Vladimir Putin, who are ready to line up with conservative Russian nationalists against things they all dislike—such as American policy or gay rights.

In tsarist times, as a new book by an American historian, Robert Crews, demonstrates, the Russians were even more single-minded in wooing Muslim notables. Soon after capturing Tashkent, General Mikhail Chernyayev entered an elabo­rate compact with local religious scholars, guaranteeing to uphold their authority, and that of other Muslim institutions, such as mosques and charities. In return, the greybeards had to deliver the loyalty of local people.

The repeated clashes between the Russian and Ottoman empires are sometimes portrayed as a classic "civilisational" which pitted Christianity against Islam - with the result that every territorial adjustment prompted mass migrations by Christians and Muslims left on the "wrong" side of a new border. But that is not the whole story of Russia's southward expansion, says Mr Crews. Imam Shamil, the legendary leader of Chechen resistance to the tsars, had local Muslim enemies as well as Russian ones; and some Muslims fought on the Russian side.

Creating a Muslim hierarchy

As Mr Crews argues in his original and insightful book, the compact between tsarist and Islamist authority was deep and elaborate. As in most forms of theocracy, the Russian regime not merely tolerated the clerical elite; it shored up the elite by helping it to fight heresy and uphold sharia law. Given that Sunni (unlike Shia) Islam lacks a formal clerical structure, the Russians sometimes had to coax one into existence by boosting the authority of their favourites. But enforcement of the law, as the book shows, could not always be left to Islamic judges. Representatives of the Russian state often found themselves adjudicating (in strictly Islamic terms) the grievances of their Muslim subjects.

Mr Crews's research, much of it conducted in the newly accessible archives of provincial Russian places such as Ufa and Kazan, is of huge relevance to the present day. Although modern Russia has a secu­lar constitution, not a theocratic one, some elements of the old relationship between the state and Russian Orthodoxy are being rebuilt. But from the state's point of view, there is a dilemma: how far can the compact with Orthodoxy go without precluding a similar one with the Russian Federation's 15m or so Muslim subjects?

The idea of some entente between modern Russian nationalism and Russian Muslims is not as absurd as it seems. Among the ideologues of neo-nationalism in Russia, there have been several figures of Muslim-Tatar background who subscribe to the ideal of a Eurasian or "Slavic-Turkic" union-roughly coinciding with the Soviet Union-whose common enemy is global, or Anglo-Saxon, capitalism.

But in other moods, contemporary Russian nationalism is stridently anti-Muslim. At least some of the time, the Russian Orthodox hierarchy portrays the war in Chechnya as a crusade against resurgent Islam-and similar rhetoric can be heard from the Russian state. But is it in Russia's interest to call the Chechen war a "civilisational" one, when that could alienate so many Muslims who live deep in the Slavic heartland? Russians, including Russian Muslims, are already arguing on this very point, and will continue to do so.


Jul 13th 2006
From The Economist print edition.

 

[Khalid Muhammad]

I think the only thing that I would comment on is that the Chechen war is directly related to the NATO and allied countries (ISI - Pakistan and by extension KSA) fight against Communism in Afganistan after the revolution there. When said Western forces undermined the revolution, Russia went in to support their 'comrades'. The rights and wrongs, well who today poses more of threat to Islamic culture and rights for self determination and has for the last 100 years. Put it this way it isn't Russia. The Chechen war in my opinion is direct overspill from the great game of the cold war. All I can say is thank God that they can longer play the 'red under the bed' card, or 'Godless commies'. It is quite clear now who the real enemies of Islam are.