The Yeast of the Pharisees

[Shermana]

You actually think that those verses support your particular view specifically? As opposed to mine?

Nice of you to shuck the rest of my post though.

 

[Rise]

A lot of those questions, if I answered them, wouldn't even mean anything to you unless you first came to terms with the fact that the scripture is telling us to be led and transformed by the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ.
The scripture is very clear in that regard.

Nothing in the scripture supports your view that man can transform and save themselves without Christ and His Spirit.

Jesus told you to be perfect just as God is perfect. Are you perfect as God is perfect? No. So what are you putting your hope of eternal salvation in? What hope do you have of possibly reaching the perfection of God as Jesus tells you to? The only man who ever did it was Jesus himself. The only hope you have of doing it too is to submit to His Spirit's work in your life.

 

[Shermana]

A lot of those questions, if I answered them, wouldn't even mean anything to you unless you first came to terms with the fact that the scripture is telling us to be led and transformed by the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ.
The scripture is very clear in that regard.

So you're saying that I have to agree with you first in order to answer my questions or address my counter replies. How intellectually honest.

Nothing in the scripture supports your view that man can transform and save themselves without Christ and His Spirit.

Actually it does. It depends on how you interpret it of course, in which in your case you can twist the hell out of all the times that Jesus exhorts people to personal responsibility and good behavior on their own accord.

Jesus told you to be perfect just as God is perfect. Are you perfect as God is perfect? No. So what are you putting your hope of eternal salvation in?

By your logic, Jesus was speaking faceteciously if he said to be perfect when we are incapable of doing so on our own accord.

My hope of "Eternal Salvation" is in the Atoning Sacrifice of Jesus and a conscious effort to refrain from sin. I don't think you understand what "Eternal Salvation" means. Or that it is "Age-long", not "eternal". I don't think you have any clue what exactly Jesus's sacrifice is about in the first place.

And I definitely don't think you are truly led by the Spirit the way you think you are by any means whatsoever. I think you are confused with the idea that anything you say or do is right. I think you are one of those who thinks that just because you believe the Spirit is leading you that whatever you say and believe is somehow spirit led.

What hope do you have of possibly reaching the perfection of God as Jesus tells you to? The only man who ever did it was Jesus himself. The only hope you have of doing it too is to submit to His Spirit's work in your life.

Do you even know what perfection means in the first place? I think that was one of the questions, wasn't it?

So basically, you are expecting me to accept your particular terms and definitions before you even explain them?

 

[Rise]

I've given you a lot of scripture about the necessity of being led by the Spirit to be transformed. You haven't refuted it, and haven't offered up anything to support your view that man has the power to be perfect by their own effort.

You could say that Jesus was being facetecious in the sense that he knew you had not the power to do what was required of your own effort. That's why you need Him.
The whole purpose of the law was only to show you that you needed a savior so you'd submit to His lordship.
He's making a jab at those who feeling confident in their own ability to keep the law by expounding on the real meaning of God's law, taking it to heights that even they know they can't achieve on their own, and if that weren't enough he sums it all up by exhorting those listening to be perfect like God. Something everyone should know they can't do on their own.

 

[Shermana]

I've given you a lot of scripture about the necessity of being led by the Spirit to be transformed. You haven't refuted it, and haven't offered up anything to support your view that man has the power to be perfect by their own effort.

What's there to refute? You've given scripture that doesn't necessarily agree with what you're saying about it and only vaguely supports anything you say and if anything, which I already believe by my own interpretation.

If anything the Onus is on you to prove how those verses specifically describe what you are saying rather than what I'm saying.

You could say that Jesus was being facetecious in the sense that he knew you had not the power to do what was required of your own effort. That's why you need Him.

The text doesn't say this at all, another great example of reading into the text something that's simply not there, which ultimately gets a radically different interpretation than what was intended. Like your use with the other verses.

The whole purpose of the law was only to show you that you needed a savior so you'd submit to His lordship.

That's what Paul may say but it's not necessarily what the original intention was. Besides, does that mean you can BREAK the Law?

He's making a jab at those who feeling confident in their own ability to keep the law by expounding on the real meaning of God's law, taking it to heights that even they know they can't achieve on their own, and if that weren't enough he sums it all up by exhorting those listening to be perfect like God. Something everyone should know they can't do on their own.

No he's not, that's yet another reading into the text something that's not there.

Basically you're just proving that anyone can make the text read however they want it to read, without sticking to what the text itself actually says.

 

[Rise]

The proof of the truth of what I say is in seeing the transformed lifes that occur by the power of the Spirit. Where their own family doesn't even recognize them years, months, or sometimes even weeks after their conversion experience.

Try to reconcile the verses I gave you with your belief that man does not need intervention by the Holy Spirit to become more like Christ. I haven't seen you attempt this yet.
Some of these verses are exceptionally explicit that the Holy Spirit's intervention is necessary for personal transformation, and that man alone has no power to achieve this. There's no other way to read them.


Matthew 19
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
　
So it's impossible for some people to be saved on their own, they need God to make the impossible possible.
　
　
Romans 3
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
　
You can't be declared righteous by your own works.
　
　
Hebrews 7
19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 10
For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.
　
Keeping the law can't make you perfect. But Jesus told you to be perfect in Matthew 5. Obviously it's something else that makes you perfect.
　
　
John 3
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6

So you can't enter the Kingdom of God by your own works alone. You need the spiritual rebirth.
　
　
Romans 8
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
　
Right here in Romans 8 we are told explicitly that Christ's sacrifice paved the way for the Spirit to dwell in us, and that only by having the Spirit of God dwell in us can we live a life according to the Spirit.
　
　
2 corinthians 3
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
　
Being tranformed into the image of Christ, from glory to glory, comes from the Spirit of the Lord.
　

Philipians 1
6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
　
It is He who began the good work in us, and He who brings it to completion. Not us.
　
　
Galatians 5
5 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
　
Christ sets us free from sin. We don't free ourselves.
　

Galatians 5
5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Through the Spirit is righteousness.
　

Galatians 5
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Walking by the spirit is how we cease to serve the flesh.
　

Galatians 5
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
　
This is the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of our works.
We know from Romans 8 that those who belong to Christ Jesus are those who have the spirit dwelling in them.
　
　
Ephesians 4
22 throw off your old sinful nature and your former way of life, which is corrupted by lust and deception. 23 Instead, let the Spirit renew your thoughts and attitudes. 24 Put on your new nature, created to be like God—truly righteous and holy.
　
Renewal of the mind comes by Spirit.
　
　
1 John 1:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
　
It is He who makes us righteous, not ourselves.
　

2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

You must be "in Christ" to be a new creation. Romans 8 tells us that to be in Christ is to have His Spirit dwell within us.
　

2 Corinthians 5
. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
　
"In Him" we are the righteousness of God. Romans 8 tells us that we are "in Him" when His Spirit dwells within us.

 

[Desert Snake]

Pride, and the spreading of false doctrine, seem like the best cadidates for the analogy

wow...

 

[Brickjectivity]

Shermana, in a response to Rise you said:

No, Jesus was ONLY talking about the false interpretations of the Scribes and Pharisees, the "legalism" that he was referring to was obviously their corrupted proto-Talmudic concepts that he considered deviations from the original Law. He specifically said that anyone who teaches to break the least of the commandments shall be called the least in the kingdom. That's almost as legalistic as you get. He said not one of the Laws would be void until Heaven and Earth collapse. (And even in 2 Peter it's mentioned that the New Heaven and Earth is still a long ways away).

With that said, Jesus can be considered to be VERY Legalistic. He did not teach a free-for-all anything goes mentality at all. He taught a very strict, very narrow and very rigid lifestyle. He warned his own disciples to avoid doing things which would cause them to go to hell. The concept of "legalism" being a bad thing altogether is not even something the Orthodox church espoused. It ultimately boils down to a "Do as thou wilt as long as it harms no one" mentality. To say that Jesus considered structure and behavioral conditionals to be wrong altogether is the exact opposite of what the entirety of the NT encompasses.

I do not think Jesus would be teaching "Do as thou wilt," but I also don't think the 'Yeast of the Pharisees' merely specific incorrect teachings. Several quotations by Jesus indicate he was sorely displeased with their arguing, not merely with specific teachings of theirs. He was displeased with their methods, their discipleship, their attitudes.

***********
Here's an example of Jesus teaching the Pharisees not to argue:

In Matthew 22, Jesus curtly silences the Sadducees and thereby attracts the attention of the Pharisees -- an opposing sect. Jesus takes this moment to emphasize that they should 'Love their neighbor as themselves', then he proceeds to silence the Pharisees as well. In other words, around him there was nothing they could say.

This underscores the teaching you read about in James that the 'Tongue is a world of evil among the parts of the body', 'If anyone thinks himself wise let him show it by good deeds done in meekness', 'Slow to speak and quick to listen', 'The wisdom that is from above is first of all patient.'

There are many ways that both Jesus and Paul taught that exacting arguments are not the way.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Rise, sorry it has been a while but I had to give myself some time out. You said:

Your views do not line up with scripture. Read the book of Romans.
We are told very explicitly that the law does not have the power to transform people, that transformation comes by faith in Christ through the Holy Spirit.
The law is powerless to change anyone, it can only show them the need to change.

I do hear you in one ear, but at the same time I hear Psalm 19 in my other ear. The law of the LORD is 'Sweeter than honey', 'Revives the soul', and 'Makes wise the simple'. These are not idle words but praises by someone who has experienced renewal through the law, and that someone is king David. His psalms are considered to be scripture by the apostles and are quoted in Acts as such.

Romans 2
29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Yes, and this lesson comes directly from the Law. Deuteronomy 10:16 says "Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer." The Law teaches that there is more than mere outward acts but that transformation happens within. That's why Jews keeping the law don't need to convert.

Romans 3
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Paul is speaking to you and me, ignorant gentiles; but to Jews he's merely preaching to the choir. They already themselves teach the same thing.

Romans 5
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Again, not news to Jews; but you have to study the law and think about it deeply to get the benefit.

Romans 8
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.

Again, not news to Jews. This gospel was first preached to Abraham who passed through the two halves of a sacrifice. His own son Isaac was spared after he showed his willingness to offer him. Jews knew and know the weakness of laws by themselves. Laws must be supplemented by the spirit; and this has never been a secret. I understand that Jesus was very rough with the Pharisees and teachers of law, and I realize Paul was reciting these principles in Romans 8. It still doesn't mean that the Law cannot save or that Jews need conversion. They wouldn't.

Hebrews 10
For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

Once again, Paul is not teaching anything new. Any practitioner of the law, any student of it, knows this. He's not saying anything new.

Remember also that faith in Christ is what connects us with Moses Law. Studying it is strongly suggested and may even be considered a requirement.

 

[savagewind]

Rise and Brickjectivity might both be right imo. Matthew 22:37-40

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Without love for Yahweh AND for neighbor the law is nothing. With love, it is everything.

 

[Rise]

Rise, sorry it has been a while but I had to give myself some time out. You said:
I do hear you in one ear, but at the same time I hear Psalm 19 in my other ear. The law of the LORD is 'Sweeter than honey', 'Revives the soul', and 'Makes wise the simple'. These are not idle words but praises by someone who has experienced renewal through the law, and that someone is king David. His psalms are considered to be scripture by the apostles and are quoted in Acts as such.

What is the law of the Lord, is it just a list of narrow legal statues? Or are those statues meant to be a guide to point us to Christ, as Paul tells us?

Jesus tells us, in matthew 5, that the law of the Lord is that we let our actions, thoughts, and feelings become the perfect embodiment of love so that we are just like the Father.

That's why Jesus said the whole law can be summed up as love God and love others.

Yes, that law of perfect love is perfect, refreshing.

But how are you going to keep that? The answer is in Romans 8.

Laws must be supplemented by the spirit; and this has never been a secret.

Paul does not tell us that the spirit is a supplement that allows us to keep the mosaic statues and regulations. Paul tells us that being led by the spirit IS keeping the law.
Righteousness comes by the Spirit, by faith, by love.
He further says you have no need for the law if you are led by the Spirit, because if you are fully led by the Spirit then you can do no deed that is considered unlawful by God.


Galatians 5

5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
...
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
...
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.


In Romans 8, the Spirit is not just a supplement that enables keeping the mosaic regulations, but rather being led by the spirit is everything. The beginning and end of righteousness.

You're putting things backwards if you think the Spirit exists to help us keep the mosaic regulations, rather than the mosaic regulations existing to point us to the need for the grace of the Spirit to love the way God does.

Again, not news to Jews; but you have to study the law and think about it deeply to get the benefit.

Nowhere in anything Jesus teaches, or what Paul teaches, do I find any implication that deep study of the mosaic law leads to salvation.

Instead, we find Paul telling us that the only thing the law did was make us aware of the need for grace to actually abide by the law.

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Shermana]

Rise and Brickjectivity might both be right imo. Matthew 22:37-40

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Without love for Yahweh AND for neighbor the law is nothing. With love, it is everything.

That in no way means that love of God and neighbor REPLACES the commandments, it means that in order to love God and neighbor, you must obey the commandments.

It's like saying "All the rules of traffic depend on "Watch out to not crash", does that mean you can now speed 100mph in a residential zone?

1 John 5:3 is quite clear on this and should settle the argument point blank.

"The love of God is obedience to the commandments".

 

[savagewind]

But how do you know 1 John 5:3 is not referring to the two commands? 1. Love Yahweh with your whole heart soul and mind and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

You cannot be sure.

So then without love of Yahweh and love of neighbor obeying all the other commands means NOTHING.

How does your obeying Moses' commands show love for me?

 

[Shermana]

But how do you know 1 John 5:3 is not referring to the two commands? 1. Love Yahweh with your whole heart soul and mind and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

You cannot be sure.

Because those aren't the only two commands? If you say those are the only two commandments Jesus makes, you're basically snipping 99.999% of what Jesus teaches.

I can't be sure that the Sun will rise tomorrow. I can't be sure that the Bible wasn't written by Xenu and his Space Alien henchmen either. I'm 99.9999% sure that "the commandments" are referring to "THE" commandments (articulated for a reason). So to say we can't be sure on this is a little bit of a stretch. I say we CAN be sure of this, and we can be sure that those who say that those two commandments somehow replace the rest are completely, defacto, without question or doubt, WRONG.

So then without love of Yahweh and love of neighbor obeying all the other commands means NOTHING.

To a degree. Even Paul says "You shall live (as in survive and not be put to death, not just "apply to your life") by the Law", so obedience to the commandments it the bare minimum. But to do so without love of God and neighbor is fairly empty and without the full meaning and value of doing so. Besides, to love God with all you got IS a commandment, just as is loving a neighbor. So how can one truly love God and neighbor if they ignore the other commandments?

How does your obeying Moses' commands show love for me?

How doesn't it? This is kind of a loaded question. Name one of the commandments other than the ones like Sabbath, Fringes, and things that apply to God, that wouldn't apply to "love" of neighbor.

And while you're at it, What is love?

 

[savagewind]

In case your asking.

None of the laws of Moses will get me a drink or some food. None will dress me or visit me. None will comfort me if I am sick.

Matthew 25:34-40, 46

What is love? Do you have a family? The feeling you might have for your family is love. Love will do whatever it takes to make life better for your brothers, mother and Father. Sometimes sisters too.

 

[Desert Snake]

In case your asking.

None of the laws of Moses will get me a drink or some food. None will dress me or visit me. None will comfort me if I am sick.

Matthew 25:34-40, 46

That's actually not the issue. If you're only taking secularism into account then why even involve religion at that point

 

[Shermana]

In case your asking.

None of the laws of Moses will get me a drink or some food. None will dress me or visit me. None will comfort me if I am sick.

Matthew 25:34-40, 46

What is love? Do you have a family? The feeling you might have for your family is love. Love will do whatever it takes to make life better for your brothers, mother and Father. Sometimes sisters too.

There are indeed laws in the Torah about charity and making sure no one among you goes hungry and without his basic needs.

(And judging by the lot of the poor in Israel, many of us Jews have forgotten these days).

Torah.org - The Judaism Site

The Torah speaks about giving charity in Deut. 15:7ff ("If there will be a poor man among you... you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand toward your poor brother; you shall open your hand to him and shall give him enough for his needs") and Lev. 25:35ff ("If your brother becomes poor... you shall support him, stranger or settler, and he shall live with you").

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You've never met people who can't stand their families? You think it only applies to familial love or a desire to make things for better for people? Try a better attempt at explanation than that. Jesus even said those who don't disown (usually mistranslated as "hate") their families can't follow him.

I want to make life better for all the righteous around the world economically and politically as well as spiritually, and make sure the potentially wise and righteous don't burn in hell, is that not love in your book?

 

[savagewind]

That's actually not the issue. If you're only taking secularism into account then why even involve religion at that point

Oh! Look! Someone who understands. OMgoodness. I think you are saying Matthew 25 is not about practical help offered for this world's comfort but means a spiritual reaching out. Is that correct? Me too. I know that is what it means too.

 

[savagewind]

There are indeed laws in the Torah about charity and making sure no one among you goes hungry and without his basic needs.

(And judging by the lot of the poor in Israel, many of us Jews have forgotten these days).

Torah.org - The Judaism Site


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You've never met people who can't stand their families? You think it only applies to familial love or a desire to make things for better for people? Try a better attempt at explanation than that. Jesus even said those who don't disown (usually mistranslated as "hate") their families can't follow him.

I want to make life better for all the righteous around the world economically and politically as well as spiritually, and make sure the potentially wise and righteous don't burn in hell, is that not love in your book?

It is love in my book

 

[savagewind]

Why then did I use it as an example? Hm. I do not know.