The witchhunt continues...

[icehorse]

I think it is the clear implication of your line of reasoning.

You are guessing about what I'm thinking. Not only that, I've clarified my stance many times on this thread.


Despite your lazy and rude behavior, I will reiterate my stance:

I believe it would put ALL women at increased risk of rape or assault if we normalized the occurrence of men using women's bathrooms.

==

Why has society decided that we should have separate men's and women's restrooms in the first place? I would say privacy and SAFETY would be high on the list of reasons for this decision. So far so good?

 

[icehorse]

I never said anything about letting men in the women's restroom. That's your own erroneous spin.
ONCE AGAIN! Quit putting words in my mouth!

All I did was to state the logical conclusion of your stance.

Let me try again: I sincerely believe you think we should allow trans women WHO LOOK LIKE MEN to use women's restrooms.

So far so good?

 

[Orbit]

You are guessing about what I'm thinking. Not only that, I've clarified my stance many times on this thread.


Despite your lazy and rude behavior, I will reiterate my stance:

I believe it would put ALL women at increased risk of rape or assault if we normalized the occurrence of men using women's bathrooms.

==

Why has society decided that we should have separate men's and women's restrooms in the first place? I would say privacy and SAFETY would be high on the list of reasons for this decision. So far so good?

And I repeat. If you're trying to protect me, which your statement about risk of rape says clearly that you are, then you can stop. Transgender women are not men.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You seem to misunderstand. Again.. Read it...

"A group of 21 international endocrinology clinicians and researchers from nine countries signed an open letter published yesterday arguing that gender transition medicine for minors has been pushed in the United States for political reasons rather than based on medical evidence.

Every systematic review of evidence to date, including one published in the Journal of the Endocrine Society, has found the evidence for mental-health benefits of hormonal interventions for minors to be of low or very low certainty," wrote the group of endocrinologists in the letter published on Thursday in the Wall Street Journal."......

"The letter published on Thursday, however, highlights that the risks of life-long sterility and medical dependency, as well as continued mental trauma, have greater certainty than the little-supported evidence in favor of hormonal transition.

For this reason, more and more European countries and international professional organizations now recommend psychotherapy rather than hormones and surgeries as the first line of treatment for gender-dysphoric youth," wrote the international team of physicians"

I read it. It's dumb, it's short sighted, it's useless. 21 is a TINY sample. Kind of like when Creationists spout their number of scientists but their number is dwarved by the number who reject Creationism in favor or evolution.
And America isn't doijg things different than other countries except for banning transcare for minors and adults.
And guess what? To nit at least administer puberty blockers is cruel and torturous.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

All I did was to state the logical conclusion of your stance.

Let me try again: I sincerely believe you think we should allow trans women WHO LOOK LIKE MEN to use women's restrooms.

So far so good?

There's cis women who look like men (ever hear "she has a man face"?). Try again.
All you did was put words in my mouth.

 

[fantome profane]

All I did was to state the logical conclusion of your stance.

Let me try again: I sincerely believe you think we should allow trans women WHO LOOK LIKE MEN to use women's restrooms.

So far so good?

There's cis women who look like men (ever hear "she has a man face"?). Try again.
All you did was put words in my mouth.

Women are getting harassed in bathrooms because of anti-transgender hysteria

Truly tragic stories.

www.vox.com

Just as it is absurd to be checking genitals or chromosomes, it is equally absurd to judge whether women are feminine looking enough before allowing them to pee. And that applies to cis or trans women.

 

[icehorse]

And I repeat. If you're trying to protect me, which your statement about risk of rape says clearly that you are, then you can stop. Transgender women are not men.

I have specifically an repeatedly been talking about THAT SUBSET OF TRANS WOMEN WHO CHOOSE TO LOOK LIKE MEN.

That is the topic. So far so good?

 

[fantome profane]

I believe it would put ALL women at increased risk of rape or assault if we normalized the occurrence of men using women's bathrooms.

I think people are just trying to get you to understand that trans women using the woman's bathroom has been normalized, it has been normal for many many decades. There is no reason it should change.

 

[icehorse]

Women are getting harassed in bathrooms because of anti-transgender hysteria

Truly tragic stories.

www.vox.com

Just as it is absurd to be checking genitals or chromosomes, it is equally absurd to judge whether women are feminine looking enough before allowing them to pee. And that applies to cis or trans women.

Should I infer that you think the whole reason we established separate restrooms in the first place was wrong, and that it should now be undone?

 

[icehorse]

I think people are just trying to get you to understand that trans women using the woman's bathroom has been normalized, it has been normal for many many decades. There is no reason it should change.

see my post directly above, #767

 

[Orbit]

I have specifically an repeatedly been talking about THAT SUBSET OF TRANS WOMEN WHO CHOOSE TO LOOK LIKE MEN.

That is the topic. So far so good?

Because that is so common (NOT). Never seen it in a bathroom, your concern is misplaced.

 

[fantome profane]

Should I infer that you think the whole reason we established separate restrooms in the first place was wrong, and that it should now be undone?

Maybe, I would not have a problem with that.

But I am not saying it should be forced. My position is extremely simple. The government should not be involved, at all. Since the beginning of the human race we have had to urinate, and most of us have figured out how to do that with out legislation.

 

[fantome profane]

see my post directly above, #767

see my post directly above, #772.

I think this can be negotiated between the person who needs to pee, and the owner of the facility. The government does not need to be involved.

 

[Debater Slayer]

In past discussions you have repeatedly claimed that puberty blockers and surgeries "save lives".

Sometimes they do, when prescribed based on a thorough, qualified diagnosis by medical professionals.

Here's a good article about further analysis and studies. A few key points from the article:







STUDY ANALYSIS: Transgender Identity and Suicide Attempts and Mortality in Denmark

That's a glaringly ideological right-wing website, not a medical one. From its "About Us" section:

Spoiler: Large image

Please don't tag me again in this thread unless you're going to quote actual reputable medical sources. You haven't provided any arguments I haven't seen addressed and refuted by medical experts before or given any evidence-based reasoning rather than ideological and personal preference, and now you're linking to a website dedicated to an anti-trans crusade.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

What makes a "man" and "woman" differs widely due to the social and cultural nature of gender roles. I personally think much of the pushback against LGBTQ+ folks and the stigmatization against them has its roots in how they subvert some of traditional gender roles. It should be noted that some of the criticism against LGBTQ+ culture is how it reflects a postmodern philosophy of relativism, specifically that cultural mores don't necessarily have realistic or practical purposes.

I think some basic characteristics that seem important from my interactions with transgender folks include:

Appearance
-Traditional clothing designed for a specific gender.
-Makeup. For men in modern America, that means ANY use of makeup.
-Accessories like necklaces and earrings that were once primarily feminine.
-Shoes. High heels in particular.

Voice
-Not just pitch but how voice is used. I do not understand as much about this, there are inflections that apparently differ between men and women that are less about biology and more about social convention. I know a few folks who work really hard to change this about themselves.

Body language
-Use of hands and arms. Consider how people used to cock their hands flamboyantly to signal "That person's gay." (Because sexuality and gender has had very entwined relationships historically.)
-How a person carries themselves walking or running triggers some social responses. I spent a lot of my time hiking and trail jogging barefoot in high school and developed a kind of soft careful walk that was described as "girly." Even recently during a jogging session at my dojo someone described me as "prancing" when I jogged. I imagine this isn't uncommon with barefoot trail joggers.

Those are some of my thoughts, but there are likely a whole lot more that can be used to define "man" and "woman" in contemporary and historical American culture. These are the things I have seen transgender friends working to develop.

Note: I am not transgender. I welcome folks who are to correct me.

So no biological truths such as chromosomes, body parts etc.? Men cannot give birth to a baby.

 

[icehorse]

Please don't tag me again in this thread unless you're going to quote actual reputable medical sources. You haven't provided any arguments I haven't seen addressed and refuted by medical experts before or given any evidence-based reasoning rather than ideological and personal preference, and now you're linking to a website dedicated to an anti-trans crusade.

I feel compelled to respond when you broadcast the idea that the worldwide medical industry has overwhelmingly concluded that puberty blockers and surgeries "save lives". This is an extraordinary claim. It appears from my research that the evidence for this claim is shaky and not holding up well to harsh scrutiny.

As for slandering the source of the article. Please try to remember that this topic is hugely consequential. As such, we should be focused on the quality of the factual claims made, correct?

And also please remember that WPATH - the source of much of the SOC - is itself a largely ideological organization.

I would contend that most of what we can read on such politically charged topics comes from biased-to-some-degree sources.

That means it's up to us to evaluate the quality of the FACTUAL CLAIMS we read. That's the ultimate test.

 

[icehorse]

Because that is so common (NOT). Never seen it in a bathroom, your concern is misplaced.

Well if YOU'VE never seen it, it must not be a problem. Does that logic hold true for all events you've never seen?

 

[fantome profane]

Well if YOU'VE never seen it, it must not be a problem. Does that logic hold true for all events you've never seen?

What. Is. The. Problem?

Are they peeing on the floor? Are they not washing their hands? What?

 

[The Hammer]

Men cannot give birth to a baby.

So what's your point?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Are you going to check everyone's "equipment" before they walk into a restroom?

I do believe that I already made it clear that that is my job