The Way of All Revelation

[sealchan]

I once wrote about what I call the God Dream (before Kanye used the phrase in one of his songs ;-)) on another forum and made what were to me some amazing discoveries regarding the universal experience of similar dreams about God from believers and non-believers and from people of differing faiths. Now I want to expand slightly on this type of experience as a form not just of the Abrahamic personality God experience but of the wider experience of divine revelation and its template. it has been awhile since I read William James' The Varieties of Religious Experience so I cannot confidently say whether any of this is described by that philosopher-psychologist.

Of the God Dream I once wrote...

This type of vision or dream has certain characteristics that make it recognizable. First there is the experience of deep fear often with the specter of death close at hand. God may be good or more like the devil. Often this fear resolves into a release from that fear. And that release is in the form of a name. That name might be of God itself or it might be the dreamer's own new name. The name, the personal name, is the salvation from the death that is threatened.

Re-reading this last paragraph I realized that is reminded me of a succinct description of Buddhism's Four Noble Truths...

from Wikipedia Four Noble Truths...

The Four Noble Truths refer to and express the basic orientation of Buddhism in a short expression: we crave and cling to impermanent states and things, which are dukkha, "incapable of satisfying" and painful. This craving keeps us caught in samsara, the endless cycle of repeated rebirth and dying again, and the dukkha that comes with it. There is, however, a way to end this cycle, namely by attaining nirvana, cessation of craving, whereafter rebirth and associated dukkha will no longer arise again. This can be accomplished by following the eightfold path, restraining oneself, cultivating discipline, and practicing mindfulness and meditation.

Basically...we suffer because of lack of satisfaction, this suffering can be ended, the end goal is nirvana and the way is <path x>. This mirrors somewhat my description of deep fear, resolution to deep fear, the resolution has a name. Now in my description of the God dream there are other motifs but one of the most important is that God is not visible. If God is visible it is through a proxy (prophet, son, etc.) and often that proxy is a statue or painting. Now adding that back in I get four qualities of the God dream...

• God is not visible
• There is great fear
• There is a resolution to that fear
• The resolution has a significant name

Dukkha and samsara involve the cycle of life and death and a suffering in that. These are different than but comparable to an invisibility of God and a great fear of God. The expectation of death within that fear brings in the theme of life ending. The invisibility of God is perhaps like a suffering for a sense of ultimate meaning or completion through a sensory experience of reality. Different, but similar.

To what extent is this true in the description of the revelatory moments of religious figures in the various religious traditions and in those revelatory moments of people today? Anyone who cares to apply the above to a significant religious figure they are aware of please share.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I once wrote about what I call the God Dream (before Kanye used the phrase in one of his songs ;-)) on another forum and made what were to me some amazing discoveries regarding the universal experience of similar dreams about God from believers and non-believers and from people of differing faiths. Now I want to expand slightly on this type of experience as a form not just of the Abrahamic personality God experience but of the wider experience of divine revelation and its template. it has been awhile since I read William James' The Varieties of Religious Experience so I cannot confidently say whether any of this is described by that philosopher-psychologist.

Of the God Dream I once wrote...



Re-reading this last paragraph I realized that is reminded me of a succinct description of Buddhism's Four Noble Truths...

from Wikipedia Four Noble Truths...



Basically...we suffer because of lack of satisfaction, this suffering can be ended, the end goal is nirvana and the way is <path x>. This mirrors somewhat my description of deep fear, resolution to deep fear, the resolution has a name. Now in my description of the God dream there are other motifs but one of the most important is that God is not visible. If God is visible it is through a proxy (prophet, son, etc.) and often that proxy is a statue or painting. Now adding that back in I get four qualities of the God dream...

• God is not visible
• There is great fear
• There is a resolution to that fear
• The resolution has a significant name

Dukkha and samsara involve the cycle of life and death and a suffering in that. These are different than but comparable to an invisibility of God and a great fear of God. The expectation of death within that fear brings in the theme of life ending. The invisibility of God is perhaps like a suffering for a sense of ultimate meaning or completion through a sensory experience of reality. Different, but similar.

To what extent is this true in the description of the revelatory moments of religious figures in the various religious traditions and in those revelatory moments of people today? Anyone who cares to apply the above to a significant religious figure they are aware of please share.

I am trying hard and picking an experience of Jesus to consider using your partitions...

Jesus takes 3 men ( and probably some women ) up a small mountain. His face begins to glow like Moses face, and 2 witnesses equally shining figures Moses and Elijah appear with him. His disciples want them to stay and offer to set up three tents, but they don't stay Instead everything goes back to normal. Moses and Elijah vanish out of sight, and Jesus stops glowing. A voice in heaven announces this is 'My son'

Prior to this Israel is called the Son. For this reason the vision is likely about the Jews, about Elijah's school and about the Church since each figure pertains to a group of people. It is a representation of God dwelling in people. Now why are there three and why are Elijah and Jesus separate from Moses? We have all read "One lord, one faith, one baptism," yet here are three! Three separate schools of baptisms, three approaches to the same Torah? Three glowing figures instead of one?

The disciples want the figures to stay, but they fade. The voice tells them however that it is pleased with the son. The message is to remain in the Son and through that to conquer Samsara.

 

[sealchan]

I am trying hard and picking an experience of Jesus to consider using your partitions...

Jesus takes 3 men ( and probably some women ) up a small mountain. His face begins to glow like Moses face, and 2 witnesses equally shining figures Moses and Elijah appear with him. His disciples want them to stay and offer to set up three tents, but they don't stay Instead everything goes back to normal. Moses and Elijah vanish out of sight, and Jesus stops glowing. A voice in heaven announces this is 'My son'

Prior to this Israel is called the Son. For this reason the vision is likely about the Jews, about Elijah's school and about the Church since each figure pertains to a group of people. It is a representation of God dwelling in people. Now why are there three and why are Elijah and Jesus separate from Moses? We have all read "One lord, one faith, one baptism," yet here are three! Three separate schools of baptisms, three approaches to the same Torah? Three glowing figures instead of one?

The disciples want the figures to stay, but they fade. The voice tells them however that it is pleased with the son. The message is to remain in the Son and through that to conquer Samsara.

In Genesis Abraham is visited by three people and one is interpretable as God. The scene you describe seems to reflect that experience of Abraham.

One could imagine that there is great fear when seeing Jesus and the others glowing but this is not explicitly mentioned. There is no fear mentioned or even a problem mentioned. Also the theme of the three is not mentioned in my explanation.

However, one of the other motifs of the God dream is that there are large groups of people. Also, the aspect of Three is very common from the temptations of Jesus and the Buddha to the various divine trinities of Gods whether Father, Son, Holy Spirit or Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva.

For the person who experienced this vision, did they have any sense of fear or a problem being solved? Is this a first person account of an experience or a story from an author?

 

[Brickjectivity]

For the person who experienced this vision, did they have any sense of fear or a problem being solved?

There is a problem being solved yes, but this particular vision is unrelated to trinities. Any table sits on three legs at any given moment. There is a concept of trinity in Christianity that us undeveloped until 2nd century, so Moses Elijah and Jesus would not correspond to the three persons but would incidentally be three and I think not mystically.

 

[sealchan]

There is a problem being solved yes, but this particular vision is unrelated to trinities. Any table sits on three legs at any given moment. There is a concept of trinity in Christianity that us undeveloped until 2nd century, so Moses Elijah and Jesus would not correspond to the three persons but would incidentally be three and I think not mystically.

What is the problem that is solved that pertains to this story?

Three is a very common pattern found throughout the spiritual/mythical/religious stories across the world. Jesus was flanked by two others when he was crucified. Osiris, Horus and Isis form a trinity and were likely influential in the development of Judaism and Christianity. But this is tangential to the thread topic...

 

[Brickjectivity]

What is the problem that is solved that pertains to this story?

Its a restatement of the problem to be solved by Christianity. Its just one of many such restatements, but in terms of the OP it resolves samsara. You go into Christ investing your life there, losing yourself. Thus you escape samsara by losing your life. The vision is saying that Jesus is the Son thus that Christ is permanent, thus enabling confidence that the investment will not be wasted.

 

[sealchan]

Its a restatement of the problem to be solved by Christianity. Its just one of many such restatements, but in terms of the OP it resolves samsara. You go into Christ investing your life there, losing yourself. Thus you escape samsara by losing your life. The vision is saying that Jesus is the Son thus that Christ is permanent, thus enabling confidence that the investment will not be wasted.

Yes. The story itself, I suppose, looses sight (explicitly) of the problem but the audience may know and understand that context. Or alternately, the problem is presented simultaneously with the solution in a common divine form of three figures with the "arguments" of the two (flanking?) figures being "resolved" by the middle one.

 

[sealchan]

I am trying hard and picking an experience of Jesus to consider using your partitions...

Jesus takes 3 men ( and probably some women ) up a small mountain. His face begins to glow like Moses face, and 2 witnesses equally shining figures Moses and Elijah appear with him. His disciples want them to stay and offer to set up three tents, but they don't stay Instead everything goes back to normal. Moses and Elijah vanish out of sight, and Jesus stops glowing. A voice in heaven announces this is 'My son'

Prior to this Israel is called the Son. For this reason the vision is likely about the Jews, about Elijah's school and about the Church since each figure pertains to a group of people. It is a representation of God dwelling in people. Now why are there three and why are Elijah and Jesus separate from Moses? We have all read "One lord, one faith, one baptism," yet here are three! Three separate schools of baptisms, three approaches to the same Torah? Three glowing figures instead of one?

The disciples want the figures to stay, but they fade. The voice tells them however that it is pleased with the son. The message is to remain in the Son and through that to conquer Samsara.

Oh I see...I am reading this a little wrong...samsara is part of this experience. So the person who experienced this has taken from the historical development of the relationship to God and also injected a bit of Buddhism into the mix.

Yes, now the problem is clearer to me. The problem of Samsara which is not a part of the Jewish-Christian formula is being solved by the samsara of Moses-Elijiah-Jesus with Jesus being chosen by the unseen God as the final solution.

Yes, I think this really does fit the pattern of revelation. Was this vision/experience of great significance to the person who had it?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Oh I see...I am reading this a little wrong...samsara is part of this experience. So the person who experienced this has taken from the historical development of the relationship to God and also injected a bit of Buddhism into the mix.

Yes, now the problem is clearer to me. The problem of Samsara which is not a part of the Jewish-Christian formula is being solved by the samsara of Moses-Elijiah-Jesus with Jesus being chosen by the unseen God as the final solution.

I am glad you understand what I do not. I am not the expert on Judaism, and it may well have a conceptual equivalent to samsara or not.

Yes, I think this really does fit the pattern of revelation. Was this vision/experience of great significance to the person who had it?

The account appears in all three synoptic gospels. The gospels do not call it a vision, but you may.

 

[osgart]

King Solomon was someone who had it all, and did it all according to Ecclesiastes. Of everything done under the sun all is vanity and vexation of spirit was his conclusion. Nothing satisfied him of everything he worked for, and every pleasure he took.

So apparently there is a matter of heart, that we need to be reconciled to God, to ever gain fulfillment. A hearts desire that longs for the ideal and the absolute truth.
That the truth brings everlasting peace to the soul.

Solomon could not find that within himself, and every other place he ventured to and looked.

So this truth is a matter of the heart, and not merely facts about nature and reality. Gods heart is the purest heart there is, has no hypocrisy, can not lie, and is full of compassion, and perfect in judgment and mercy, and love.

 

[sealchan]

I am glad you understand what I do not. I am not the expert on Judaism, and it may well have a conceptual equivalent to samsara or not.
The account appears in all three synoptic gospels. The gospels do not call it a vision, but you may.

I thought it sounded familiar...so this is a synopsis of the same story from the three synoptic gospels. I know that the author of the gospel of Matthew is definitely (or his sources were) influenced by other spiritual traditions. As such it is likely that the experience of this vision was second, third hand or invented based on other story traditions. It was also public rather than private and my own study and claims do not address any public encounter with God.

But when one looks specifically at first hand, private encounters with God then the pattern I mention stands out even more. But this story might somewhat support the idea that fits the pattern and that it could be in some way at least remotely connected to first hand experience.

Now I hadn't thought about it this way, but saying the above may or may not help to establish the objectivity of the account. However, story-myth tradition, being what it is, this is also unlikely to be convincing. It may be that it was known that encounters with God or spiritual revelations had these motifs/qualities to them and authors wanting to create convincing spiritual narratives knew or intuited from example, to formulate them in this way.

 

[sealchan]

King Solomon was someone who had it all, and did it all according to Ecclesiastes. Of everything done under the sun all is vanity and vexation of spirit was his conclusion. Nothing satisfied him of everything he worked for, and every pleasure he took.

So apparently there is a matter of heart, that we need to be reconciled to God, to ever gain fulfillment. A hearts desire that longs for the ideal and the absolute truth.
That the truth brings everlasting peace to the soul.

Solomon could not find that within himself, and every other place he ventured to and looked.

So this truth is a matter of the heart, and not merely facts about nature and reality. Gods heart is the purest heart there is, has no hypocrisy, can not lie, and is full of compassion, and perfect in judgment and mercy, and love.

That's interesting that you bring up Solomon as dukkha or the lack of satisfaction with things is clearly what Solomon's problem was. Solomon seems to represent all that is good about God's creation but without God Himself present.

My purpose in this thread is not so much to describe the whole of God from any given religious perspective but to establish some objective, measurable qualities that an experience of God or of Revelation might have. This is to help to engage with those who are outside of a faith in the topic of the truth-validity of the religious experience. There is a God in the sense of a repeatable observation of reality (personal, psychological experience).

In other words, there is evidence of the objective nature of God and of spiritual truth.