The Trinity

[sojourner]

Faith, hope and charity; wisdom, love, and the word; father, son, holy ghost. Threes.

Wisdom. Life. God. Ones.

All the rest is theobabble if used not to love and unify but to condemn and disjoin.

Soooo...

Wisdom is both three and one?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Hope-The Holy Spirit
Faith-Jesus
Love-God

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't believe He's floating around anywhere. As we read in Acts, Stephen "...being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God." Stephen himself concurs, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." For starters, it would have been impossible for Stephen to denote any kind of a spatial relationship relationship between two individuals had one one them been invisible. As to what He's doing now, specifically, I suppose He would be "about His Father's business" as has been the case since the beginning.

Enoch and Elijah got taken up, many Christians believe they will be taken up, but to where? The "sky opened up" to what? Another dimension? And God is there with his body? Jesus is there with his glorified earthly body? But what about the Holy Spirit? He's floating around like a mystical gaseous substance?

 

[Katzpur]

Enoch and Elijah got taken up, many Christians believe they will be taken up, but to where? The "sky opened up" to what? Another dimension?

Yeah, another dimension -- Heaven. Why not? If there's this dimension, why not another?

And God is there with his body? Jesus is there with his glorified earthly body?

Yes, and yes.

But what about the Holy Spirit? He's floating around like a mystical gaseous substance?

You're kind of into this idea of "floating around," aren't you? I suppose a lot of Christians would describe the Holy Spirit as a "mystical gaseous substance." Mormons would say that the Holy Spirit is merely a "spirit" (i.e. a life force) which does not inhabit the physical confines of a body. Whereas most Christians say that both the Father and the Holy Spirit are spirit only, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't see much point in there even being a Holy Spirit if it's basically just the same thing as the Father is.

But then, to someone who doesn't even believe that there is such a thing as a "spirit," none of this would really make much difference, and I'm kind of thinking that might be the camp you fall into.

 

[CG Didymus]

...most Christians say that both the Father and the Holy Spirit are spirit only, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't see much point in there even being a Holy Spirit if it's basically just the same thing as the Father is.

I hope there is a mystical spiritual reality. That's the camp I'm in. But that spiritual reality has a lot of room in it for all people of all religions.

You're point that if God is spirit then why is there a need for a duplicate Holy Spirit is exactly what I don't get about the trinity concept. I can see where they come up with it in the Bible, but why wouldn't at the garden the Gods just say, "Here we are. All three of us." Or, on Mt. Sinai, "Hey Moses I am what I am, and He is too. That's my boy Jesus. And that gaseous stuff floating around, that's us also. We all three are what we are and are one triune god."

 

[Katzpur]

I hope there is a mystical spiritual reality. That's the camp I'm in. But that spiritual reality has a lot of room in it for all people of all religions.

That's nice to know. That's kind of like my spiritual reality.

You're point that if God is spirit then why is there a need for a duplicate Holy Spirit is exactly what I don't get about the trinity concept. I can see where they come up with it in the Bible, but why wouldn't at the garden the Gods just say, "Here we are. All three of us." Or, on Mt. Sinai, "Hey Moses I am what I am, and He is too. That's my boy Jesus. And that gaseous stuff floating around, that's us also. We all three are what we are and are one triune god."

I'd say you've expressed my perspective on the Trinity quite well.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I find it curious as to how people justify the logic for the Trinity, it is blatantly pagan and unfounded within the Judeo religious context.

 

[vtunie]

It may well be that the only parts of Christianity that have transcendent value are the pagan ones, at least the parts left over after the Judeo-bits have been removed.

A deity that chose a favored tribe, even temporarily, just seems to be a poor choice for a universal force, even within his own postulated frame of reference. Not for those people fortunate to be enough in the chosen tribe, mind you; their choice is clear: just for everyone else.

But the Trinity may be an altogether deeper concept than the three hypostases of father, son, and holy ghost.

The neoplatonic intellect, soul, and spirit map even better than the orthodox Christian trinity to such common Christian triads as faith, hope, and charity, or word, love, and wisdom.

A trinitarian point of view has at least this plus: it adds complexity to the plane of moral or ethical values that compel a supra-naturalistic worldview, sufficient complexity to make religion viable without a necessary creator-god, or a presumptious classification of extra-physical forces. The abstract triads leave sufficient space for a life-giving holy spirit on top of physical mind and almost-physical soul that is universal and desirable to invoke and encourage in the microcosm, but not insecure enough to require worship or direct address in prayer.

As for why three should be such a satisfactory number, here's a simple explanation: three is the next ordinal after two, that is after the number essential to binary logic and thus empirical rationalism; it extends the binary in the most economical way.

 

[sojourner]

I find it curious as to how people justify the logic for the Trinity, it is blatantly pagan and unfounded within the Judeo religious context.

So? There's an inherent problem with that? Or should we just strive to keep Xy under glass, protecting it "for Jews only?":sarcastic

 

[Shermana]

I find it curious as to how people justify the logic for the Trinity, it is blatantly pagan and unfounded within the Judeo religious context.

It's a central linchpin for a multi-trillion dollar enterprise and the basis of a huge social network and a mainstay of their convenience-based-salvation-theology, so it's not too hard to see WHY they do it.

HOW they do it, however, is indeed quite "curious" in how they are willing to consistently defy logic and reason for the sake of the artificial doctrine of man.

 

[InChrist]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I don't believe it is coincidental that God the Creator has placed evidence of His triune nature on His creation . For example: space, matter, time compose the one cosmos; past, present, future compose time as one whole, and body, soul, and spirit compose one human being.


I don't perceive the Trinity to be pagan at all... except that Satan the deceiver has inspired many pagan religions to adopt a twisted imitation of the true triune God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Shermana]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I don't believe it is coincidental that God the Creator has placed evidence of His triune nature on His creation . For example: space, matter, time compose the one cosmos; past, present, future compose time as one whole, and body, soul, and spirit compose one human being.


I don't perceive the Trinity to be pagan at all... except that Satan the deceiver has inspired many pagan religions to adopt a twisted imitation of the true triune God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Space, Time, and Matter are not "Triune" in any meaning of the term as it would apply to the concept of 3 things all being one in unity of "essence". There really is no such thing as the Past or the Future, there is only the Present, the Past and Future simply do not exist. So by your analogy, Two of the Three simply do not exist but are useful means of explaining states of the present in various time frames among the continum. Body, mind, and soul are not the Same entitiy of different "persons", they are different entities with different essences altogether. If anything, Space and Time begot matter through Energy, thus this would imply Arianism.

 

[kjw47]

[FONT=&quot]I don't believe it is coincidental that God the Creator has placed evidence of His triune nature on His creation . For example: space, matter, time compose the one cosmos; past, present, future compose time as one whole, and body, soul, and spirit compose one human being. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]I don't perceive the Trinity to be pagan at all... except that Satan the deceiver has inspired many pagan religions to adopt a twisted imitation of the true triune God.[/FONT]

If the trinity teaching is truth, then the explanation for rev 3:12 would be-- God has a God with another God over there. Do you really think that God has a God?( Jesus does-John 20:17, rev 3:12-- this is the truth Jesus teaches, so do his teachers.

 

[Ouroboros]

I find it curious as to how people justify the logic for the Trinity, it is blatantly pagan and unfounded within the Judeo religious context.

The Jewish Talmud labelled it "****uf" and is referred to polytheistic (and heretical?) views of the Jewish God.

The "spirit" of God was never its own identity in any different way that Adonai, Elohim, Jahweh, etc. The holy spirit is nothing but a different aspect of the one, and there is not just two, or three, but many aspects of the same

1, 2, 3, ... n. Doesn't matter. 3 isn't unique more than 4 or 20.

I think that the original "trinity" is based on father, mother, and son. Mary as one of them, not the spirit. They all have the same spirit if they're divine.

 

[Ouroboros]

I don't believe it is coincidental that God the Creator has placed evidence of His triune nature on His creation . For example: space, matter, time compose the one cosmos; past, present, future compose time as one whole, and body, soul, and spirit compose one human being.

Space, matter, energy (3 types), time, quarks, gravity, ... nah. Not 3.

Past, present, future... I don't know. Why would that be a sign of trinity?

Husband, wife = 2.

Owner, house = 2.

Car, gas = 2.

Tree, grass, dirt, sun, air, water, nutrition = 7.

CPU, RAM, MMU, Keyboard, Mouse, Screen, HD = 7.

Pen, paper = 2.

Brain, body, 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 ears, 1 nose, 1 mouth, 2 eyes, ...

See? You can find many different count combinations in the world. Why is the count of 3 of things the only thing that points to a God of 3?

I don't perceive the Trinity to be pagan at all... except that Satan the deceiver has inspired many pagan religions to adopt a twisted imitation of the true triune God.

That's one of the worst arguments apologists have come up with.

 

[sojourner]

If the trinity teaching is truth, then the explanation for rev 3:12 would be-- God has a God with another God over there. Do you really think that God has a God?( Jesus does-John 20:17, rev 3:12-- this is the truth Jesus teaches, so do his teachers.

You're conflating terms here.

 

[Muffled]

Oh, so now you're a God-sanctioned prophet.

I see. "I get to say whatever comes into my head and claim 'God told me to say this.'"


Nice.

No. Try reading to understand.

No. I believe God says what He will through me. Since God is in charge of what is said, nothing extraneous can come into the head and be spoken. I never say "God told me to say this."

I believe He is pleased with it even if others are not.

 

[Muffled]

I believe,The JW,s are the only religion on the planet that teaches what Jesus taught. Like this most important of teachings---

Therefore, keep on seeking first the kingdom and his(Jehovah) righteousness, and all these other things will be added.

Jesus pointed all to his God and Father in everything.

I beleive JW's are messed up in the head for believing this when so much of what they say strays so far from the word of God.

 

[Muffled]

I was wondering. Who believes God has a physical body? No one, right? God is spirit. But, Jesus had a body and still has a body, right? The "gloried" body ate food and was felt by Thomas and then ascended into heaven, right? So if Jesus is God, then God has a physical body? Somehow I'm thinking all the verses that make it sound like Jesus is God are metaphorical or hyperbole. Or, if you insist he's God then fine, whatever.

I beleive God is essentially Spirit.

I beleive so.

The meaning of "have" here is that of God attaching Himself to the body of Jesus making it His own. The body does not become part of the essence of God.

I believe you can think that but you would not be able to prove it.

It makes a big difference.

 

[sojourner]

Since God is in charge of what is said, nothing extraneous can come into the head and be spoken

We have free will to think and say as we will. Human thought is never either pure or perfect.