Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
So then, you have said Jesus is like God, then you said Jesus is not like God.
I think you speak contradictory nonsense.
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The Trinity
- Thread starter Atruthseeker
- Start date
So then, you have said Jesus is like God, then you said Jesus is not like God.
I think you speak contradictory nonsense.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
1 Samuel 2:2 was an expression of intensity. No other rocks were like Jehovah in his saving power. In the case of the false gods there really was no contest since they did not exist anyways. Jesus is similar to God. Scriptures say he is. But that does not mean that Jesus is the Source of Life, or the Ultimate expression of goodness. Always Jesus deferred to his Father. We should honor the King as Jehovah's chief representative. We should not honor him as Jehovah's replacement/equal.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
So then, you changed your mind again. Now, you say Jesus is like God. You still go against the scriptures, for the scriptures say there is no one like God.
You are badly mistaken.
1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
For just as the Father raises up the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants to. - John 5:21
And yet were did Jesus get the power to resurrect?
How precious your loyal love is, O God!
...
With you is the source of life;
By your light we can see light.
- Psalm 36:7a,9
God's own spirit made me,
And the Almighty's own breath brought me to life.
- Job 33:4
Next verse(again-context)
For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, - John 5:22
What does it mean to entrust? "to give over to someone else for care, protection or performance."
And yet were did Jesus get the power to resurrect?
How precious your loyal love is, O God!
...
With you is the source of life;
By your light we can see light.
- Psalm 36:7a,9
God's own spirit made me,
And the Almighty's own breath brought me to life.
- Job 33:4
Next verse(again-context)
For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, - John 5:22
What does it mean to entrust? "to give over to someone else for care, protection or performance."
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JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
You cannot make Jesus into God just because you want to believe it. If there is no unequivocal statement by either Almighty God or his son to the effect that they share in a godhead equally, then all you have is an opinion. No matter how hard you push it or repeat it...it will not make it true.
Provide the clear Biblical statement and we will all believe it...if you can't then put it down. You are free to believe whatever you wish, but unless you can back up what you say with a clear admission from either of them, you cannot push it as a doctrine.
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." Words of Jesus.
So what does that make Jesus?
God, using your own post.
Let's put an end to this Jesus is not God scenario and that he is just a man.You cannot make Jesus into God just because you want to believe it. If there is no unequivocal statement by either Almighty God or his son to the effect that they share in a godhead equally, then all you have is an opinion. No matter how hard you push it or repeat it...it will not make it true.
Provide the clear Biblical statement and we will all believe it...if you can't then put it down. You are free to believe whatever you wish, but unless you can back up what you say with a clear admission from either of them, you cannot push it as a doctrine.
Let's look at his actions at the Last Supper. Jesus is leading a Jewish religious ceremony. It's not Passover because they are reclining at table, not standing up. Plus, the Passover lambs had not been slaughtered yet.
So Jesus is leading a Jewish todah with his apostles. The todah is performed to thank God for a saving action on his part. That is why it is performed. To give thanks to God.
Does Jesus state that he will be performing a saving action? Sure does.
Now, the kicker. He replaces God with himself as the object of the todah when he says "Do this in memory of me." Wow. Jesus has the guts to replace the object of thanks (God) with himself.
Jesus is either God or he's the biggest blasphemer (sinner) ever. And he is recommending that his apostles commit idolatry by doing the todah in memory of him, not God.
BYW, if you're a Jehovah's witness and you participate in the annual memorial service to a mere man who has replaced God with himself in the todah, you've got a serious problem. You are honoring a man who has replaced God with himself.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
That is absolutely awful!! He does not replace God with himself. Think about it. Jesus gives glory to God in everything. He's not God and he's not the biggest blasphemer ever.
No one is saying that Jesus is a mere man. God was his Father, that doesnt make him a mere man. He had to be the Son of God and the son of man. Both. Not 100% God and 100% man. That's just stupid talk. Scripture tells us that he was like us until he went to heaven. The perfect sacrifice had to be someone like us. If he was God, the atonement goes right out the window.
What don't you understand? Mere man. Perfect man. It doesn't matter as Jesus would still be an inferior being to God. The words of Jesus are clear. Do this religious ceremony intended to honor and thank God in memory of me, a mere man or a perfect man. You can call it Passover or a todah. The effect is the same. It's idolatry if Jesus is a man, even if he gives God glory in everything. There's no way you can twist out f the words of Jesus. Do this in memory of me. The words of Jesus have you boxed in. He's either God or Satan trying to replace God with himself. You choose.
BTW, he needs to be God for the atonement to be effective. The infinite offering himself to the infinite. Not the created finite offering himself to the infinite. That's like buying a present for yourself when no one else in your family didn't get what you wanted for you.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
More than that, though, the word translated as "remember" is anamnesis, which is much more than a "recalling to mind." It much more resembles always bringing that act into our present reality. So, in sharing the meal of thanks, we are entering again into the sacrifice of God's self for the reconciliation of humanity. How could we do that with a mere man -- even a perfect man?
BTW, here is the Passover scenario from your NWT:
“Go and get the Passover ready for us to eat.”+ 9 They said to him: “Where do you want us to get it ready?” 10 He said to them: “Look! When you enter into the city, a man carrying an earthenware water jar will meet you. Follow him into the house that he enters.+ 11 And say to the landlord of the house, ‘The Teacher says to you: “Where is the guest room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?”’ 12 And that man will show you a large, furnished upper room. Get it ready there.” 13 So they left and found it just as he had told them, and they prepared for the Passover. 14 So when the hour came, he reclined at the table along with the apostles.+ 15 And he said to them: “I have greatly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I tell you, I will not eat it again until it is fulfilled in the Kingdom of God.” 17 And accepting a cup, he gave thanks and said: “Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves, 18 for I tell you, from now on, I will not drink again from the product of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes.” 19 Also, he took a loaf,+ gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body,+ which is to be given in your behalf.+ Keep doing this in remembrance of me.”+ 20 Also, he did the same with the cup after they had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant+ by virtue of my blood,+ which is to be poured out in your behalf.+
So Jesus says to do Passover in remembrance of him.
Exodus 23 states:
14 “Three times a year you are to celebrate a festival to me.+ 15 You will observe the Festival of Unleavened Bread.+ You will eat unleavened bread for seven days, just as I have commanded you, at the appointed time in the month of A′bib,*+ for at that time you came out of Egypt
God wants the celebration to him. Jesus wants the celebration to him from the Last Supper forward. You do the math.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Timing.
Judas was at the Passover Meal, both Mark and John show that Judas was dismissed prior to the institution of the Lord's Evening Meal. Thus the unclean Judas was not present when this communion meal was eaten. (Le 7:20,21)
All 3 parties were at the communion meal.
Jehovah was present, as indicated by Jesus praying prior to passing around each emblem. Jesus was present as the sacrificial lamb. The 11 faithful apostles were present to eat at "the table of Jehovah." (1Co 10:21) God, Lamb, spiritually clean worshipers of Jehovah. As Jesus set the pattern, whenever the Memorial is celebrated, Our heavenly Father is always the one given thanks to before passing around each emblem. He is the one that sent his Son, who's life-blood was poured out for the forgiveness of our sins.
This Lamb is also used in a sin offering, and as a unique Passover Lamb.
Jesus appropriately said "Do this in remembrance of me" because he is the Lamb soon to be sacrificed the following afternoon. He paid the full price so that all repentant sinners could, by faith in it's sin atoning value, constantly renew their own clean standing before God. Jesus is the sin offering that only had to be made once for all time. This was also not just any passover lamb that needed to be replaced year after year in memory of Jehovah's saving act. This Lamb, as symbolized by the emblems, would be the same one used year after year.
This is an event observed by all of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide annually after the sundown at the beginning of Nisan 14. Only a relatively few partake, but all of us are readily there to observe this annual communion meal between Jehovah and Christ's spirit-anointed brothers.
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Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
I gave many scriptures that clearly show us that Jesus is God.You cannot make Jesus into God just because you want to believe it. If there is no unequivocal statement by either Almighty God or his son to the effect that they share in a godhead equally, then all you have is an opinion. No matter how hard you push it or repeat it...it will not make it true.
Provide the clear Biblical statement and we will all believe it...if you can't then put it down. You are free to believe whatever you wish, but unless you can back up what you say with a clear admission from either of them, you cannot push it as a doctrine.
Tell me, do you believe Jesus is Love?
Answer plainly yes or no.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
God says that people will call Jesus God, Father, and the Holy Spirit, and that is what I call him.
Isaiah 9:6 HCSB For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Why do you have a problem with my calling Jesus the names that God gave him?
In the Old Testament, God calls HIMSELF THE FIRST AND THE LAST. That is exactly what Jesus calls himself in Revelation!
Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
JESUS calls HIMSELF the FIRST and the LAST in Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
Read Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Jesus calls himself the SAME EXACT name that God calls Himself. So then, why do you have a problem with my calling Jesus God?
Jesus makes it clear that he does nothing on his own. All His miracles are a sign of something greater, the power of God.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
Whose blood is it?
God’s blood
Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
Jesus’ blood
1 Peter 1:19
but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
When incarnated, Jesus gives up the authority/GLORY he had in heaven to do the will of his father, not his own. He makes his will subject to that of the father while incarnated-if this cup can pass, if not, thy will be done thingy. Subjecting his will is something that he did not have to do in heaven prior to the incarnation. Plus, the Trinity always acts in unison, not independently.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Act 20:28
“through the death of his own Son”
Today’s English Version, American Bible Society, New York.
Grammatically, this passage could be translated as in the King James Version and Douay Version, “with his own blood.” That has been a difficult thought for many. That is doubtless why ACDSyh (margin) (followed by Moffatt’s translation) read “the congregation of the Lord,” instead of “the congregation of God.” When the text reads that way it furnishes no difficulty for the reading, “with his own blood.” However, אBVg read “God” (articulate), and the usual translation would be ‘God’s blood.’
The Greek words τοῦ ἰδίου (tou i·di′ou) follow the phrase “with the blood.” The entire expression could be translated “with the blood of his own.” A noun in the singular number would be understood after “his own,” most likely God’s closest relative, his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ. On this point J. H. Moulton in A Grammar of New Testament Greek, Vol. 1 (Prolegomena), 1930 ed., p. 90, says: “Before leaving ἴδιος [i′di·os] something should be said about the use of ὁ ἴδιος [ho i′di·os] without a noun expressed. This occurs in Jn 1:11; 13:1, Ac 4:23; 24:23. In the papyri we find the singular used thus as a term of endearment to near relations . . . . In Expos. VI. iii. 277 I ventured to cite this as a possible encouragement to those (including B. Weiss) who would translate Acts 20:28 ‘the blood of one who was his own.’”
Alternately, in The New Testament in the Original Greek, by Westcott and Hort, Vol., 2, London, 1881, pp. 99, 100 of the Appendix, Hort stated: “it is by no means impossible that ΥΙΟΥ [hui·ou′, “of the Son”] dropped out after ΤΟΥΙΔΙΟΥ [tou i·di′ou, “of his own”] at some very early transcription affecting all existing documents. Its insertion leaves the whole passage free from difficulty of any kind.”
- 6C With the Blood of God’s Own Son — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
“through the death of his own Son”
Today’s English Version, American Bible Society, New York.
Grammatically, this passage could be translated as in the King James Version and Douay Version, “with his own blood.” That has been a difficult thought for many. That is doubtless why ACDSyh (margin) (followed by Moffatt’s translation) read “the congregation of the Lord,” instead of “the congregation of God.” When the text reads that way it furnishes no difficulty for the reading, “with his own blood.” However, אBVg read “God” (articulate), and the usual translation would be ‘God’s blood.’
The Greek words τοῦ ἰδίου (tou i·di′ou) follow the phrase “with the blood.” The entire expression could be translated “with the blood of his own.” A noun in the singular number would be understood after “his own,” most likely God’s closest relative, his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ. On this point J. H. Moulton in A Grammar of New Testament Greek, Vol. 1 (Prolegomena), 1930 ed., p. 90, says: “Before leaving ἴδιος [i′di·os] something should be said about the use of ὁ ἴδιος [ho i′di·os] without a noun expressed. This occurs in Jn 1:11; 13:1, Ac 4:23; 24:23. In the papyri we find the singular used thus as a term of endearment to near relations . . . . In Expos. VI. iii. 277 I ventured to cite this as a possible encouragement to those (including B. Weiss) who would translate Acts 20:28 ‘the blood of one who was his own.’”
Alternately, in The New Testament in the Original Greek, by Westcott and Hort, Vol., 2, London, 1881, pp. 99, 100 of the Appendix, Hort stated: “it is by no means impossible that ΥΙΟΥ [hui·ou′, “of the Son”] dropped out after ΤΟΥΙΔΙΟΥ [tou i·di′ou, “of his own”] at some very early transcription affecting all existing documents. Its insertion leaves the whole passage free from difficulty of any kind.”
- 6C With the Blood of God’s Own Son — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Revelation 22 - Who Is Speaking?
Re 22:1-11 - an angel and John
Re 22:12-15 - Jehovah himself
Re 22:16 - Jesus
Re 22:17 - John
Re 22:18-22a - Jesus
Re 22: 22b - John
To whom do the titles “the Alpha and the Omega” and “the First and the Last” refer? The title “the Alpha and the Omega” applies to Jehovah, stressing that there was no almighty God before him and that there will be none after him. He is “the beginning and the end.” (Rev. 21:6; 22:13) Although Jehovah is referred to as “the first and the last” at Revelation 22:13, in that there is none before or after him, the context in the first chapter of Revelation shows that the title “the First and the Last” there applies to Jesus Christ. He was the first human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life and the last one to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally.—Col. 1:18.
Re 22:1-11 - an angel and John
Re 22:12-15 - Jehovah himself
Re 22:16 - Jesus
Re 22:17 - John
Re 22:18-22a - Jesus
Re 22: 22b - John
To whom do the titles “the Alpha and the Omega” and “the First and the Last” refer? The title “the Alpha and the Omega” applies to Jehovah, stressing that there was no almighty God before him and that there will be none after him. He is “the beginning and the end.” (Rev. 21:6; 22:13) Although Jehovah is referred to as “the first and the last” at Revelation 22:13, in that there is none before or after him, the context in the first chapter of Revelation shows that the title “the First and the Last” there applies to Jesus Christ. He was the first human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life and the last one to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally.—Col. 1:18.