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The Trinity???

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by destinata7, May 26, 2004.

  1. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    "No, Elohim reflects the remnants of the Canaanite mythology and nascent Israelite henotheism."

    Good afternoon, Deut.....we meet again!

    Would you please elaborate a little more on your above statement.



    Thank you,
     
  2. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Um, John Chapter 1 must be studied to fully comprehend the message rather then taking it at face value

    The Bible teaches that there is only one true God, that God was in Christ,(II Corinthians 5:19: "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."), that God is Spirit (John 4:24: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth", and that God is eternal in contrast to Jesus whose beginning was his birth.

    The basic scripture upon which the Jesus-is-God doctrine has been founded in John 1:1. This has been read and interpreted as follows: "In the beginning was God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. All three were with God, and all three were God." But this is not what the verse says.

    The question of John 1:1 is who is "the Word" or what is "the Word" (logos). Genesis 1:1 plainly states "In the beginning God.." God alone was from the beginning. How does God who is Spirit communicate Himself as "the Word," logos, with man who is flesh? Humans communticate with each other by way of symobls. These symbols communicate ideas and thoughts. But Spirit cannont communicate with mind, senses or reason as spirit and senses are two separate well defined categories. John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

    Spirit and flesh are in two different realms and each one must stay within its own boundaries. Spirit can communicate with spirit only, and flesh by way of the senses can communicate with the senses or the material realm. How then does God overcome these communication barriers?
    God who is Spirit manifests Himself to men in three ways 1) by His spirit, which was upon special people in the Old Testament and which is in those who are born again during this age of grace (like me) 2) by His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ; 3) by His Word, both the written and spoken. To manifest Himself in the material realm, God had to use a concrete form for senses men to recognize. God gave the revealed Word so that man by his natural faculties might be able to understand the communication from God. When John 1:1 says "...and the Word was with God" it refers to the manifested, revealed logos: 1) the written Word which has come to us as the Bible and 2) the created Word which is Jesus Christ. "In the beginning was the Word [God] and the [revealed] Word was with God..."

    How was this revealed Word with God? The Word was with God in His foreknowledge. God is omniscient, knowling all things: He knew from before the foundation of the world that man which He formed, made and created would sin; He knew from before the foundation of the world that Jesus Christ would redeem man; He knew from before the foundation of the world that it would be possible for man to be born again; He knows our end as well as our beginning. This is what John 1:1 literally says: The revealed "Word was with God" in His foreknowledge: the revealed Word was later to be manifested in writing as the Bible and in the flesh as Jesus Christ.

    How was Jesus with God in the beginning? In the same way that the written Word was with Him, namely, in God's foreknowledge. The reason Jesus Christ is the Word and is called in the Bible the logos is that he was God's plan for man's redemption and salvation. The subject of the entire Bible is God who revealed Himself most completely in His Son, Jesus Christ, the redeemer of man. In the Old Testament, Jesus Christ was in God's foreknowledge and in the foreknowledge of God's people as God revealed this propetic knowledge to them. When Jesus Christ was born, he came into existence. Foreknowledge became a reality.

    God who is Spirit, in order to manifest Himself in concretion, had to reveal Himself and His will in words and in His Son. God's communication of Himself as the logos, the revealed written and spoken Word, came into manifestation when "II Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." And, when the fullness of time came, Jesus Christ who was God's communication of Himself in the flesh was born. John 1:14: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

    John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God" "The same" is this revealed Word which was with God in His foreknowledge from the very beginning. Verse 2 is a repetition of what is noted in verse 1. Why the repetition? To establish what has been said. Whenever God doubles a revelation in the Word, the absoluteness is established. Genesis 41:32 "And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice: it is because the thing is established by God" This truth concerning the revealed Word is so great, so magnificent and wonderful that God had it stated twice to emphasize it and to indicate the definite establishment of it. The preposition "with in verses 1 and 2 of John 1 further confirms the whole truth:"...And the Word was with [pros] God ...The same was in the beginning with [pros] God." There are a vast number of different Greek prepositions translated "with," but only pros could fit here. Pros means "together with and yet having distinct independence"; "intimate and close intercommunion, togehter with distince independence." The revealed Word was together with God and yet distinctly independent of Him. This removes the guessing from John 1:1 and 2 and fits it together with the laws used in language as well as harmonizing the truth with the rest of the Word of God.

    John 1:1 and 2:"In the beginning was the Word [God], and the [revealed] Word was with [pros] God [with Him in His foreknowledge, yet independent of Him], and the Word was God. The same [revealed Word] was in the beginning with [pros] God.

    Verse two could leterally read, "The same [the written Word, which is the Bible, and the Word in the flesh, which is Jesus Christ] was in the beginning with God [in His foreknowledge] Other scriptures what show God's communication to man by way of the prophets who gave us the written Word and by His Son Jesus Christ who was sent by God. Psalms 107:20 He [God] sent his word [by way of the prophets], and healed them... John 5:36:"...the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me." John 5:38:"And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whome he hath sent, him ye believe not" John 17:3:"...that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent"

    The first phrase in John 1:1, "In the beginning" is a significat usage of words. The word "beginning" can be used in two ways. First of all a person could speak of the beginning of a football game in terms of the moment the game begins. In such a case one would say that the players were on the field from the beginning of the game. However, in a more active sense, someone could speak of the beginning of the game as all the preliminary events which lead up to the game including the training of the players, the preparatoin of the stadium, the practicing of the cheerleaders and all other events involved in getting ready for that game. This second usage is the one employed in this first verse of John. "In the beginnning..."

    Notice that the first word in the verse is "in" , not "from" The Greek word is en. If ek or apo had been used meaning "out from" or "away from", a specific point, the time of a definite beginning would have been indicated. The "in", en, of John 1:1 is "in" or "during the beginning," en arche, before the heavens and earth were created. God, who was in the beginning and who was the logos, is eternal. Jesus Christ, who is God's communication of Himself in a person, had a beginning when he was born, yet in God's foreknowledge Jesus Christ was in the beginning. The word for "word in John 1:1 is logos preceded by the article ho. Another Greek word rhema, which is also translated "word", indicates a reference only to the words which are spoken, implying nothing as to the thought or meaning conveyed by the words. However, the word logos, which is God, has reference to the thoughts and ideas conveyed by the spoken Words, the written Words and the incarnate Word. All the spoken, written and incarnate Words were with God in His foreknowlege. They did not come into existence in the senses world until God had someone with whom to communicate. In the beginning (before the creation of the world), the Word, logos, was God and this Word, logos, was with God in His foreknowledge. It was first communicated to man by the spoken and written Word and later by the incarnate Word, His Son Jesus Christ.

    In the next phrase of this first verse of John, is again the same usage of the word logos. However this time logos is coupled with the prepositional phrase "with God". This "with" is the unique usage of the word pros, and the word "God" is employed with a definite article. In other words, the Word was together with yet distinctly independent of the God. There is only one true God who is above all and who was in the beginning. The definite article is employed in the Greek to bring out this distinction that He is the one true God. The Word, which was with God in the beginning in His foreknowledge and which was with God in the beginning in His foreknowlege and which was later spoken, written and made incarnate, had been together with the one true God in His foreknowledge yet distinctly independent of Him.

    The thrird phrase "the Word was God" ties together the first two phrases in this verse. The word "God" has no article for grammatical reasons rather than thought content. "The Word, which was with God in His foreknowledge and later became spoken, written and incarnate, was God" God is His Word the same as you are your word and I am my word. My words are my communication of my thoughts, feelings and ideas to you. Similarly, God's Word is His thoughts and ideas communicated to us. When I make a statement and my word is my will, then my words are just as much a part of me as is my body.

    Verse 2: "The same was in the beginning with God.
    In this first the first two words "the same" are the one Greek word houtos. This word is a demonstrative pronoun normally translated by the English words "this" and refers back to the nearest associated noun, pointing out and bringing special emphasis to that noun. The antecendent in this case is logos, the Word which was God. The words "in the beginning," en arche, are the same as in verse 1, indicating the situation before the creation in Genesis 1. Again the phrase "with the God," pros tou theou, shows that the Word was together with God in His foreknowledge yet distinctly independent of the one true God. All three clauses of verse 2, thereby doubling God's declaration regarding Himself and His Word. The certainty of the reality is thereby established beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    A literal translation according to the usage of the words in verses 1 and 2 of this great first chapter of John reads as follows: "In the beginning [before the creation] God was the Word, and the revealed Word was in God's foreknowledge [which was later communicated to man in spoken Words, written Words and the incarnate word]. This Word absolutely was in the beginning before the foundation of the world together with the one true God in His foreknowledge yet distinctly independent of Him" Verse 3 continues the information divulged in the first two verses of John 1.

    "All things were made by him [God]; and without him [God] was not any thing made that was made." "Him" is the pronoun autou controlled by its closest associated noun which is "God" Therefore, always remember that only God was in the beginning as stated in Genesis 1:1. The usage of the word "all" is always used in one of two ways. It either indicates "all without exception" or "all with distinction". "All without exception" means there are absolutely no exceptions to what is stated. but "all with distinction" means that there are no exception within a certain group; however, there are exceptions outside of that particular garoup. The "all" employed in this verse is "all without exception", since all things without exception were made by God. The words "not anything" are the Greek oude hen which literally means "not even one" So the latter part of this verse corroborates the fact that there is not even one exception. The words "was made" are the Greek word egeneto which means "to bring about" or "to come into being" The verb form is in the aorist tense indication the singleness of the action which happened in Genesis chapter one. God brought everything into existence. He was the cause or the sole mover of everything that was created. The phrase "by him" further corroborates this. The word "by" is the Greek preposition dia which, when indicating instrument or means, is translate "by", the cause of the action. God was the cause of the creation. The manner in which all things were made by the Word of God, who was the cause of the action, is clearly illustrated in Genesis 1 where God says, "Let there be...And there was..." What God said always came about. It was His Word that caused all things to come into reality. Whilte the first two verbs translated "made" in verse 3 are in the aorist indicating the singleness of God's action, the thirst and last verb "made" is in the perfect tense and refers to anything that both was made in the past and which exists in the present, bringing an emphasis to everything that has been created, formed and made. Nothing has come into existence without God's being the Creator.

    Verse 3 clearly marks the beginning of the world that we know, wheras verses 1 and 2 mark that time which was in the beginning before the foundation of the world. In the beginning, only God and the Word in His foreknowledge were in existence. A literal translation according to usage of words in verse 3 is: "All things without exception were made by God who was the cause of their existence. And without God not one thing came into being that has existed or does exist presently"

    John 1:4: "In him [God] was life; and the life was the light of men"
    What was this life which was in God and which was the light of men? this life was the spirit from God, the light of God given in concretion. The spirit from God was upon all the prophets who spoke and wrote God's mind and will; finally, it was upon Jesus Christ himself. Mark 1:10: "and straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens open, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him". The spirit from God made possible spiritual revelation from God to men of God. Not everything that God revealed to the prophets was written. Prophets frequently spoke the Word of God and did not commit it to writing. At other times the prophets wrote what they had earlier spoken. some of the spoken words of the prophets we do not have, but the Word we do have in writing was and still is "the light of men". Not everything that God has revealed to man is recored in the Bible, but that which is needed for salvation and for our learning is recorded. This is the meaning of the statement in John 1:4: "...and the life was the light of men"

    John 1:5:"And the light [God] shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not"

    How did the light shine in darkness before the coming of Jesus Christ? By way of the men of God who spoke or wrote God's mind and will. The clause in verse 5 is a general rather than a specific statement regarding light and darkness. It does not refer to a specific time in the past, in the present or in the future, but rather it is making a generalization about all time. Darkness is the absence of light. Light, heat and all forms of energy are measured in terms of the positive, never the negative. The negative is the absence of the positive. Even from a scientific point of view there is no way that darkness could comprehend light since darkness is the absence of light. That which does not exist cannot overcome that which exists.

    John 1:6 "there was a man sent [apostello] from God, whose name was John. The same [John] came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light [God], that all men through him [John] might believe. He [John] was not that Light [God], but was sent to bear witness of that Light [God]
    The ministy of John the Baptist is given in these three verses. God commissioned John for the special purpose of bearing witness.

    John 1:9:"That was the true Light [God], which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" God is the "true light". By his revealed Word he continues to light every man, even the unbeliever. Without "true light" this would be a totally impenetrable world of darkness.

    The focal point of the opening verses in the Gospel of John sets before us with utmost clarity the centrality of God.

    John 1:10 He [God] was in the world [by the revealed Word], and the world was made by him [God], and the world knew him [God] not.

    Take the time to trace the pronouns and nouns in verses 10 back to their origin. The words "he" and "him" in this verse are the pronouns under consideration. From the Greek they could be either neuter or masculine; in this case they must be neuter since the nearest associated noun would be the true light of verse 9. The true light which was the light of men in verse 4 refers back to the Word which was God in verses 1, 2 and 3. Therefore, it is God who is His Word which has the life in Him, the true light which was in the world through the spoken or written Word which came into the world; yet the world did not receive or believe God's Word, therefore, it could not know God.

    John 1:11"He [God] came unto his own [Israel], and his own received him not" God through His Word came unto His own people, which was Israel. He did this both by His spoken and His written Word. Later He came to His own through His Son Jesus Christ who was the incarnate Word. However, God's own people did not receive that Word. The words "his own" are the Greek words ta idia in the first usage and hoi idioi in the second usage in this verse. The former, in Greek, is the neuter gender while the latter is the masculine gender. God came unto "his own things", that is to His own possessions or those things which were His. but His own people did not receive His Word, in either its spoken or written or incarnate form.

    John 1:12"but as many [of Israel] as received him [God], to them gave he [God] power [exousia, authority, the right] to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on [unto] his name [namesake, Jesus Christ]

    Again trace the nouns and pronouns back, you find that as many as received Him --who was the true light which was the life in the Word --God gave them power to become the children of God by adoption. If they received God's Word, they received God. If they did not receive God's Word, they did not receive God. The means by which God gave them power to become children by adoption was to believe on His namesake, the Word which would become incarnate, which was Jesus Christ. "Jesus" in the Hebrew means "God our Saviour" Jesus Christ was God's Son and was named for His Father. It is unto that namesake, Jesus Christ, that Israel had to believe to be saved, as prophesied in the Old Testament. The word "on" --"to them that believe on" is the preposition eis, meaning "unto". This usage in verse 12 then says, "...to them who continue believing unto [continuously continue to believe on] his name ..." Israel remained as adopted sons so long as they continued believing. The Israelites were not sons of God by birth; but when Israel believed "unto [eis] His name," God adopted them as sons. "Even to them that believe on his name" refers to the name of Jesus Christ, which is above every other human name. He, Jesus Christ, was the "namesake" of God, which name relates back to the source of all life, God.

    A literal translation according to usage of verse 12 would be: "But as many as walked according to the revealed Word given to the prohets and later the releaved Word, Jesus Christ, to them God gave the privilege of adoption as sons of God, to those who continued believing unto the name of Jesus Christ"

    John 1:13: "Which were [who was] born [conceived], not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The first word, "which," must be the word "who" referring to the "namesake" of verse 12, Jesus Christ. The word "born" is the same word as "begotten" There are a number of different Greek words used in the bible for "will". The Greek word used in the 13 verse "...nor of the will of the flesh," implies desire or anticipation but not determination. This usage is wonderful, far beyond what you realize when first reading it. "Which were [who was] born not of blood, nor of the will [determination] of the flesh , nor of the will [determination] of man ..." Man might desire or anticipate the Christ, but man could never determin Jesus christ's birth. Man could not say, "Now I am going to produce the Christ," because Jesus Christ was not born according to the determinationo of the flesh..." Every woman had the phycial potential to bring forth Jesus Christ; but the will of a human being could not determine the coming of Jesus the Christ because He was born by the will, the determining, of God.

    John 1:14: And the Word [revealed Word, Jesus Christ] was made flesh [the conception], and dwelt among us [his birth], and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    The verb "was made" is egeneto, as in verse 3. Again this verse is in the aorist tense indicating the singleness of the action: Jesus Christ came once and for all. He did not come on a number of occations, but one time only to redeem man. This verb form is in the passive voice as it was in verse 3, which points out that the Word was made flesh by and outside source. In this case it is God. In order for one thing to be made by another, a difference in the two things is implied. Jesus Christ the Son of God was made by God. God created the sperm, which genetically contained soul-life, that impregnated Mary's egg or ovum. And so the Word, Jesus Christ, was made flesh by God. The word "flesh" is the Greek word sarx. The natural human being is composed of flesh and blood (haima), that is body and soul. However, the soul-life which is found in the blood is determined entirely by the sperm. It is the blood which directs the activites of the flesh. As the soul prospers, so the body prospers. The comma following the word "flesh" represents a period of nine months or a human gestation period. The Word began to be made flesh when God created the sperm in Mary. But that new life did not dwell among the people until the period of nine months later when Jesus Christ was born. The word "dwelt" is the Greek word eskenosen. It comes from the noun skene which means "a tent or tabernacle." Our human bodies are spoken of in the Scriptures as tabernacles. A tent or tabernacle is a temporary dwelling place which is mobile. Our human bodies are only a temp. dwelling place. This world is not our permanent abode; we're just passing through. When the Word became flesh, it had a temporary dwelling place, a human body, the body of Jesus Christ. The word "among" is the Greek word en. It is used to deontoe accompaniment via inclusion. In other words, "the Word" when it became incarnate dwelled in a temporary human body just as all of us. Jesus Christ was a human being, a man who had passions as we do and who was tempted in every point, yet he was without sin. He had his tent in (inclusion) and among (accompaniment with) our tents. The next part of verse 14 is a parenthesis which is a figure of speech in which additional material is added to the text: "(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.) The word "beheld" is the Greek word etheasametha which means "to behold" "observe" or "visualize", but not necessarily with the physical eye. For example, we may observe or visualize another person's interest in what we are saying, not with our physical eyes but by certain other signs that we perceive in observing them. The word "glory" is doxa, meading "brightness." The brightiness of the sun and the moon is cleary seen with the physical eyes, but not all brightness or glory is seen as physical. It may be something known by the things that are seen. "And we beheld or perceived, though not with the physical eyes, his glory or brightness which was felt and known by the things whichh he did while he was here upon the earth." Verse 14 goes on to say that this glory or brightness was as of an only-begotten son. A son innately tends to reflect his father. The word "of" which precedes "a father" is the Greek word para used with a noun in the genitive case and should be translated "from beside" indicating motion from the side of, as a tangent proceeding from the top of a circle. This further indicates the distinction between the Father and Son rather than the two being one and the same: "a glory as of an only begotten from beside a father" The last five words in verse 14 are outside of the parenthesis and refer back to the Word which had its temporary dwelling place among us in God's Son, Jesus Christ. He was "full of grace and truth."
     
  3. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Trueblood,

    I appreciate your input, but your posts are way too long! Most people won't take the time to read a block of typing as long as that....they find it intimidating and very non-user-friendly.

    It wouldn't hurt to break your thoughts up in headings and multiple posts. Not trying to insult you....just a suggestion. Bottom line is, you want as many people as possible to hear your ideas.....



    PS I'll give you some feedback on your post as soon as I've had a chance to wade through all the rhetoric.


    Respectfully,
     
  4. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    [align=center:e4babe47e0]Jesus is the Father[/align:e4babe47e0]

    Here are a few scriptures to justify my stance of Jesus being the Father:

    John 14:9
    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

    Isaiah 9:6
    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    John 10:30
    I and My Father are one.

    John 14:7
    If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

    There are more scriptures than this but these should get the point across.

    In regards to John 14:7 and 14:9, Jesus not only establishes that Him and the Father are one and the same, but also establishes that He is not the Invisible God. The Invisible God is invisible, so when you've seen Jesus you have not seen the Invisible God. That would make either Jesus Himself invisible, or the Invisible God not invisible.....we know that neither one of these are options.

    Combine that with John 1:18's famous "no man has seen God", and you have a very strong case that:

    1) Jesus is the Father

    2) Jesus is not the Invisible God


    Peace,
     
  5. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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  6. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    The original disciples didn't even believe in the "trinity", at least not in the way that it is taught today. If you would like more information on the trinity and what the Bible really teaches about it, check out the discussion forum and look up "the trinity" on www.soundtron.com

    Destinata7[/quote]

    Destinata7,
    I just join your www.soundtron board under the same user name "SpiritualSon".

    There is a trinity in all of us.This trinity is the soul,body and operations. In Our Lord Jesus Christ His Soul,Body and Operations is the Father,Son and Holy Spirit. These are three essentials or three aspects of one God,just as the soul,body and operations are three aspects by which a person may be known. The Lord's Trinity is Divine,ours is human.

    When we look at a person we see a body,but in the body there is a real person. It is the true person,as Jesus said in John 14,"He that hath seen Me,hath seen the Father." The Lord wasn't talking about another person.He was talking about Himself. He is the Father. The question ask people me is who was Jesus praying to in the garden and on the cross?

    Here is the answer: As from His birth the Lord had a human from the mother, and as He by successive steps put it off, it follows that while He was in the world He had two states, the one called the state of humiliation or emptying out [exinanitio], and the other the state of glorification or unition with the Divine called the Father.

    He was in the state of humiliation at the time and in the degree that He was in the human from the mother.In the state of glorification at the time and in the degree that He was in the Human from the Father.

    In the state of humiliation He prayed to the Father as to one who was other than Himself.In the state of glorification He spoke with the Father as with Himself.

    In this latter state He said that the Father was in Him and He in the Father, and that the Father and He were one.The Father and Son are one as Soul and Body of Jesus Christ.

    In the state of humiliation He underwent temptations, and suffered the cross, and prayed to the Father not to forsake Him. For the Divine could not be tempted, much less could it suffer the cross.

    The saying of Jesus and what they meant:
    "I am come from God" (John 8:42) - the Body came forth from the Soul.

    "The Son can do nothing of Himself, - but what He seeth the Father do" (John 5:19) - the Body can do nothing of Itself, but what it is directed to do by the Soul.

    "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16: 16) - The Messiah, the Body of the Infinite itself, which alone is Life-in-itself.

    "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased" (Matt. 3:17) - the Divine Body in which it pleased the Lord to dwell while on earth.

    "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28) - the Soul is greater than the Body, since it directs it.

    "No Man cometh unto the Father but by Me" (John 14:6) - Just as we cannot know a man's soul except insofar as his body reveals it, so also the only way we can have any idea of the Divine Soul is by means of the Divine Body, which was visible to man.

    As it is said in another place, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only Begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him" (John 1:18).

    And again, "God gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish..." (John 3:16)

    "My God, My God why hast Thou forsaken Me" (Matt. 27:46) - on the cross, the last of the Lord's' lifelong temptations, He was painfully aware of the Body to the exclusion of the Soul, as we are in a finite way in temptations. The Divine Soul seems to have forsaken it. "Father forgive them..." (Luke 23:34)

    Harry
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    The presumption, of course, is that 2nd-hand hearsay from an apologist written decades after the purported conversations constitutes compelling evidence. It's a stretch. Speaking of which, when do you plan to tell us more about your little cult?
     
  8. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called God, Hero, the Everlasting Father, upon the throne of David to establish and to found it in judgment and in justice, from henceforth and even to eternity (Isa.9:6-7).

    Jehovah God come into this world under the name Jesus Christ.With Jehovah God nothing is impossible. "A son is given" means that Jehovah God had took on a Human Form,and that Human was the Son of God.

    Harry
     
  9. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    This is a reference to the book of Psalms:

    Psalm 82:6
    I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

    The scribes decided when to capitalize or not, but this word "gods" is the same Hebrew word 'elohiym that was used in Genesis "God created the heaven and the earth". Check it out, it's the fourth word in the Bible. It seems pretty controversial that "ye are gods" does it not? It must have been important for Jesus Christ Himself to comment on it.

    Destinata7[/quote]

    Jehovah God is Divine Good and Divine Truth. Angels and men who have been regenerated by God are image and likeness of Him,are forms of good and truth from the God, not from themselves,like Father,like children.

    That is the reason one of God's name is called Elohim,and why those who have been regenerated by God are called little gods, is that the Divine Truth from Jehovah God can be express in many ways as there are angels in heaven.

    Each person that has been regenerated has their own understanding of truth from God. God is not called Elohim because of a trinity that never was before creation. He is called Elohim because angels and men are images and likeness of Him.

    Harry
     
  10. harold e. rice

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    Most Christians aren't aware of the fact that the main verse in the bible that points to the trinity was added to John around the 4th century AD by the Roman Catholic Church.

    1Jo 5:7
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the
    Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    1Jo 5:8
    And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the
    water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


    These two verses are not in the oldest copy that surfaced.
     
  11. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Let me get this straight Deut:

    1) You yourself quote from the Bible when striving to make your own points

    2) You discredit, not just translational words, but entire books of the Bible when I am quoting from them

    3) Because certain books of the Bible are discredited by yourself any argument based upon the contents of that book is "a stretch"

    4) When challenged to prove any of your stances you quietly disappear (Re previous posts from the Trinity and the Holy Bible Manifested)

    5) Yet you re-appear with a lame excuse to dish out the word "cult"

    6) And you continue to refuse to tell me what denomination you represent which is probably none (not too many churches embrace discrediting the Holy Bible)

    7) If number six is true (even scientists operate off of hunches sometimes), that would in fact make your belief system extremely "cultish" assuming you had any followers, which if you don't puts you in an even worse position than that


    Deut, is your presence on this forum to seek and/or duscuss the truth.....or is this just target practice for you?
     
  12. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    These saying of John weren't meant to be for three Divine persons.

    The three Divine aspects of one God must be understood as three Divine attributes going forth from Him, Creation, Redemption, and Regeneration, and that these are attributes of one God.One God is all three,Creator,Redeemer and Regenerator.

    The coming of Jehovah God under the Holy Name Jesus Christ:
    The words in the Bible"in that day"and "in that time;" in which, by "day," and "time," is meant Jehovah God's advent into this world. In Isaiah:

    Thus saith Jehovah, I will return to Zion, and I will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem whence Jerusalem shall be called the city of truth; and the mountain of Jehovah Zebaoth, the mountain of holiness (8:3, 20-23).

    In Joel:
    Then shall ye know that I am Jehovah your God, dwelling in Zion, the mountain of holiness; and Jerusalem shall be holiness: and it shall come to pass in that day that the mountains shall drop new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and Jerusalem shall abide from generation to generation (3:17-20).

    In that day thou shalt say, I will confess unto Thee, O Jehovah. In that day shall ye say, Confess ye to Jehovah, call upon His name Isaiah(12:1, 4). The Disciples Peter ask the people to call upon the Holy Name of Jesus.

    It shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God, for whom we have waited, that He may deliver us Isaiah (25:9).

    The passages below are proof the Father and Son of the same person,one person. Jesus proved that He was Jehovah the King,and that He would enter Jerusalem on a donkey.Amen

    Mat 21:1
    And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,

    Mat 21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an *** tied, and a colt with her: loose [them], and bring [them] unto me.

    Mat 21:3 And if any [man] say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

    Mat 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

    Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.

    Mat 21:6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,

    Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly,and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an *** (Zec 9:9).

    The King here does not mean a second person,it means Jehovah God,who in the Old testament was called King,which means truth. This God became Man under the name Jesus Christ.Amen

    It may be shown from the Word that the Lord rode on an *** and a colt the foal of an *** as a sign of royalty. [Matt. 21:5.]

    Harry
     
  13. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Trueblood,

    You said,

    What is your point here?


    So then what is the point of this scripture if it is merely a name definition and not the actual charactaristics of the Messiah that this scripture is talking about?

    Are you saying that this scripture is merely saying, "I'm sending Bob to come save you.....oh yeah, he also goes by the aliases Morty, Cleo and Mindy!"

    I'm having serious issues with this line of reasoning.


    It's one thing to interpret what you feel the bible is saying contextually....but it appears that you are saying here that every time the Greek word "hen" is used that it automatically means "one in purpose".

    This is the same exact word as used in John 10:30 as used in the following scripture:

    Matt 12:11
    Then He said to them, "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out?

    Can someone say "What man is there among you who has one in purpose sheep.....?" As you can see, this interpretation does not always apply. This makes your viewpoint sheer perspective of opinion and not the only conclusive viewpoint possible.

    I probably have more books than you do, but nevertheless, it's how these tools are used not how many you have that really matters.

    Yes, I totally agree. Are you insinuating by this statement that I have not done so?


    Just like you yourself admit, God is invisible....so rather has or had it makes no difference....no man has or had seen the Invisible God!

    Also, FYI, this same "seen" from John 1:18 appears in John 6:36:

    John 6:36
    But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

    According to your interpretation of "seen", that would mean that this scripture is saying you "understand" me and yet do not believe.......

    I'm not feeling that interpretation.


    Post is getting too long,
     
  14. harold e. rice

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    This is the verse where the Gospel borrowed the riding on a colt and ***.

    Zec 9:9
    Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem:
    behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly,
    and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.

    You'll find that most of the stuff in the Gospels was borrowed, stolen or simply made up.
     
  15. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Harold, it was a prophecy relating to Jesus Christ's second entrance into Jerusalem during the Passover.
     
  16. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Harold,

    You're starting to sound like Deut. Are you saying that the Old Testament is true and the New Testament is false?

    Do you believe that the Messiah has come yet?

    What exactly is your stance here?

    I don't like it when people discredit books that they like to quote from to support their own viewpoints. Is this what you are doing or am I completely misunderstanding what you are trying to say?


    I sincerely want to know so please don't take offense to my questions.
     
  17. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    I'm just about ready to discuss the Tetragrammaton with you wonderful discussers out there. Before we do, I want some opinions on the following:

    1) No man has seen God [John 1:18]

    2) And Moses was in the habit of speaking to the LORD face to face
    [Ex. 33:11]


    3) And there is an Invisible God [I Tim. 1:27]


    Who was Moses speaking to? The Invisible God or another God?

    I have my own beliefs but I'd like to hear some other viewpoints.
     
  18. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Exodus 33:11:"And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." This is a figure of speech. Face to face is as someone speaking to a friend. Continue reading Exodus and Moses several times beseech's the Lord to show him His glory and God says to Moses 33:20"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
     
  19. harold e. rice

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    Peace Destinata;

    &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt; You're starting to sound like Deut. Are you saying that the Old Testament is true and the New Testament is false? &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

    I'm an Ex-Fundamental Literal Christian who has been enlightened and now see religion and the bible in its true light. I don't believe that the Bible is the word of God or was inspired by him simply because I had seen and read similar storied and tales from other cultures. It is my personal opinion that most of the bible has been plagiarized. Most of its stories came from Mesopotamia, Egypt, Persia, China, and India.

    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Do you believe that the Messiah has come yet? &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    I believe that there have been many so called Messiahs in this world and the Messiah that the Hebrews were looking for wasn't a savior. They were looking for a military leader to overthrow the Roman Government.

    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What exactly is your stance here? &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    I came here to learn about other religious beliefs and opinions while sharing my own, hoping not to belittle or offend anyone. I'm still very evolved in a Christian church however, I no longer believe most of the doctrine I've been taught over the last 30 years..

    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't like it when people discredit books that they like to quote from to support their own viewpoints. Is this what you are doing or am I completely misunderstanding what you are trying to say? &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    The reason I quote from the bible is to simply to point out the fact that there are numerous errors, contradictions and untruths within the pages of the bible. Talking to a fundamentalist is like communication with a stop sign therefore I like to show them that it is in the book. I use to be one.

    I have traveled to over 22 different countries and Islands in search of biblical truth and what I found was very disheartening. I do appreciate your questions.
     
  20. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Harold you said "I'm still very evolved in a Christian church however, I no longer believe most of the doctrine I've been taught over past 30 years"

    I'm curious, what does your "christian church" you're currently involved in teach?
     
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