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The Trinity???

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by destinata7, May 26, 2004.

  1. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Do some research as to why most christians worship on "Sun"day, why they celebrtate "easter" on the day they do.....and you will find that the early church was being pressured into changing some of its key religious dates and doctrines from a Roman emperor by the name of Constantine. Constantine believed he was the incarnation of the "sun-god".

    The original disciples didn't even believe in the "trinity", at least not in the way that it is taught today. If you would like more information on the trinity and what the Bible really teaches about it, check out the discussion forum and look up "the trinity" on www.soundtron.com


    Destinata7
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Good evening, destinata7. One thing that I've found common with all silly conspiracy theories that they're put forward with zero substantiation. Perhaps you could provide evidence demonstrating Constantine's role in shifting the Sabbath to Sunday - not worthless propaganda but evidence. Thanks.
     
  3. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    There are hundreds of recognized books available on the Council of Nicea and Constantine's influence over the early church(it was Catholic you know). Tell me what denomination you are and I'll tell you what books are accepted by your church.

    The Bible says,

    2 Tim. 2:15
    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


    If you really want to know the truth you must be prepared to put in the study. If you would like to pursue this topic further give me the info I requested and I would be happy to assist you with more on this subject.

    Destinata7
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Good morning, destinata7.

    Then you should have no trouble whatsoever providing evidence that Constantine coerced the early church to shift their Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

    I'm not at all interested in a church-proscribed bibliography, nor am I overly impressed by references to 2 Timothy. What I asked for was your evidence that Constantine coerced the early church to shift their Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

    Please, destinata7, do not presume to know my level of scholarship. You'll almost certainly err. Furthermore, I find proselytizing pedantry tiresome and entirely unimpressive.

    The best way that you can 'happily assist me more on this subject' is to supply the evidence that Constantine coerced the early church to shift their Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

    Thanks.
     
  5. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Deuteronomy 32:8,

    Let me make the reason for my presence on this forum clear. I'm not trying to steal anybody away from the church that they are attending. However, I would like to bring people's attention to the fact that there are many people that are quitting churches because they feel that they are not getting answers to some important questions.

    I would like to see all the denominations address these questions with answers other than "wer'e not meant to know right now".

    On looking back at my last post I understand your taking offence to the scripture in II Timothy. I apologize for the implication that you have not studied. At the time, it seemed incredible to me that you would not know about the link between Constantine and some early church traditions. Now I see that you have read about this but your main concern is with my claim that Constantine moved the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

    The only problem with this is that I never said that Constantine moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday!

    The truth is that christians during the time of Constantine were worshipping on many different days. It was Constantine, however, that introduced the first legistlation officially giving people time off to worship on Sunday. Sunday was one of Constantine's favorite days for obvious reasons. This legistlation combined with the fact that Sunday was already a day of worship for many people helped solidify Sunday as the standard day of worship for christians.

    This discussion is a mere side-bar however to the real damage Constantine did by ordering the Concil of Nicea and insisting on being present why the church decided on key issues. This isn't mere speculation...this is church history. The catholics have books pertaining to this history as well as other denominations.

    I will not recommend a specific book to you at this time for the following reasons:

    1) There is virtually no way to prove that anything written in any history book is 100% accurate.

    2) For a book reference to be useful one must respect the author otherwise it will be easily cast aside heresay.

    3) You will automatically think that I endorse anything written by the author I recommend and we will be side-tracked.

    4) I cannot recommend an author I know you will respect because you haven't told me anything about yourself as I requested.

    5) It would be very easy for you to find a book about this yourself by a simple search on the internet (hence the earlier reference to II Tim.)


    If you are interested in these subjects I would love to discuss them with you as a friend....not as an adversary. I apologize for my aggressive tone, but I am passionate about the Bible and passion can be a double -edged sword.


    Respectfully,

    Destinata7
     
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    That is quite true, "destinata7". What you actually said was:
    • Do some research as to why most christians worship on "Sun"day, why they celebrtate "easter" on the day they do.....and you will find that the early church was being pressured into changing some of its key religious dates and doctrines from a Roman emperor by the name of Constantine.
    The clear implication is that
    • "most christians worship on 'Sun'day" because
    • "the early church was being pressured" by
    • "a Roman emperor by the name of Constantine"
    To now cower behind the pretense of having meant something different is simply disingenuous. Instead, let's deal honestly with your implied claim and see where it leads us.

    To claim that "the early church was being pressured into changing some of its key religious dates and doctrines from a Roman emperor by the name of Constantine" one would necessarily have to (a) reliably date these changes to Constantine's reign and, more importantly, (b) demonstrate that these changes were the result of Emperial pressure. The first renders the claim feasible, while the second takes it beyond some cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

    Predictably, destinata7, your conspiracy theory never gets off the ground.

    The justification for scrapping Shabbat sees its beginnings as early as Paul:
    • Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths
    • Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
    Similarly, both Paul and Luke provide evidence of nascent Sunday services:
    • 1Cor 16:2 Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
    • Acts 20:7 And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
    Clear evidence of Sunday worship predicated upon the replacement theology is traceable, at least in some locations, as far back as Barnabus and Justin Martyr, i.e., back to circa 100 CE and 156 CE respectively. On the other hand, the canonization of this substitution did not occur until the Synod of Laodicea in 366, nearly 3 decades after Constantine's death. Clearly, the Sabbath's transition from Saturday to Sunday was not the result of some Constantine-inspired Pagan plot but, rather, a long-evolving effect of a virulent, anti-Judaic replacement theology championed by the Ante-Nicene Fathers. Constantine was no more than an enthusiastic pawn in this increasingly antisemitic orgy of self righteousness.

    Constantine did many things, not in the service of some "sun-god", but in the service of the Church. The force behind these changes was not Sol Invictus, but the thuroughly Christian replacement theology of the early Church.
     
  7. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Deut. 32.8,

    First of all, to deny the political influence of Constantine and it's effect on the early church clearly shows blind spots in your 'conspiracy theory'. Christians in the days of Constantine were literally killing each other over doctrinal issues. Constantine wanted peace between the christians in his empire and issued threats just to get the bishops to meet together. Your 'pawn' theory is thoroughly unsubstantiated. Up to this point the christians had been persecuted by many of the emperors and this was their first chance to gain some stature and a reprieve from the persecutors.

    Second, if you read my post very carefully, I was clearly displaying the fact that outside influences have contributed to some of the traditions being upheld in the church world today. If I believed that Constantine was solely responsible for a Sunday Sabbath I would have said it. Instead I said there was "pressure". Huge difference my friend. And please don't make the mistake of presuming to know more about the meaning of what I'm attempting to convey than I myself know. That is repugnant and arrogant.

    Third, it is very poor manners to call someone a liar especially when no lie has transpired. Taking my words and placing them out of context as well as interjecting your own words in between to slant my statements is extremely dishonest on your part. Any statement can be forced out of context. I won't do you the dis-service of returning the favor.

    Fourth, I personally believe the scriptures that you are quoting in regards to the Sabbath. I am not a Seventh Day Adventist and I personally attend church on Sunday. Romans chapter 14 makes it clear that as long as the day is regarded unto the Lord it is acceptable in His sight.

    Fifth, your determination to argue this point that has been misunderstood by yourself, has distracted from the whole relevance of my first point. The title of this topic is The Trinity??? Constantine was mentioned in my first post because he did have an influence on this doctrine which is prevalent in many churches today. I am not here to argue the level of influence with you but to make people aware that these influences were there. It is surprising how many people are unaware of this history of Nicea.

    Regards,

    Destinata7
     
  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Please show where I've done such a thing.

    That is a reprehensible distortion of y9our obvious attempts to trace worship on "Sun"day to your "Sun"god incarnate.

    What I said was that your stance is ignorant and disingenuous, as you continue to demonstrate.

    You also apparently believe (or, at least, believed) that the Sunday Sabbath was the result, if only in part, of pressure on the Church by Constantine. You have been asked repeatedly to substantiate this claim, and you repeatedly fail to do so.

    What is relevant is that you make insinuated claims and offer no proof. For the record:
    1. Constantine was influential.
    2. The Sabbath changed from Saturday to Sunday.
    3. Therefore (sic) Constantine influenced the Sabbath.
    is a non sequitur unworthy of a competent high school student.
     
  9. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    You are very thick, Deut.

    Here is my conjecture:

    1) Constantine was influential in regards to the early church

    2) This influence had an effect on the final outcome of an almost universally accepted Sunday Sabbath as well as Easter and other key doctrinal issues (such as the Trinity). After all, Constantine gave christians Sunday off from work so that they could go to church. He did this via legistlation discussed earlier ( if this is what you're wanting proof for let me know if you're too lazy to look it up yourself). Even if some people were already going to church on Sunday this legistlation would definitely effect the decisions of others to observe a Sunday Sabbath as well.

    3) It is possible that if it wasn't for Constantine's pressure/influence that the Trinity would not be an almost universally accepted doctrine. Constantine was the driving force that led to the convening of the Council of Nicea ( if you want proof for this let me know, I'll give it to you in another post). It was at Nicea that this decision was forced in the presence of Constantine himself.

    My original post was meant to be a "teaser" and lead to a more in depth discussion of this topic.

    Deut, please cease and desist your unsubstantiated claims of what you "think" that I was trying to say, and deal with my three points stated above. Then maybe something valuable can be ascertained from all of this verbiage.


    Destinata7
     
  10. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    A Trinity of Persons was unknown in the Apostolic Church, but was hatched by the Nicene Council, and from that was introduced into the Roman Catholic church, and from that again into the churches separated from it.

    By the Apostolic church is meant the church that existed in various places not only in the time of the apostles, but also in the second and third centuries after.

    But at length men began to wrench the door of the temple off its hinges, and to break robber-like into its sanctuary. The temple is the church; the door is the Lord God the Redeemer; and the sanctuary His Divinity.

    For Jesus says:
    Verily, I say unto you, he that entereth not by the door into the sheep fold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. I am the door; by Me if any man enter in he shall be saved (John 10:1,9).

    This crime was committed by Arius and his followers. On this account a council was convoked by Constantine the Great at Nice, a city in Bithynia; and in order to overthrow the pernicious heresy of Arius it was devised, decided upon, and ratified by the members of the council that there were from eternity three Divine persons, a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit, to each one of whom belonged personality, existence, and subsistence, by Himself and in Himself.

    Also that the second person, or the Son, came down and took on a Human and wrought redemption; and therefore His Human, by a hypostatic union, possesses Divinity, and through that union He has close relationship with God the Father.

    From that time heaps of abominable heresies about God and the person of Christ began to spring up from the earth, and Antichrists began to rear their heads and to divide God into three persons, and the Lord the Savior into two,destroying the temple set up by the Lord through the apostles, and this until not one stone was left upon another that was not thrown down, according to the Lord's words (Matt. 24:2), where by "the temple" not only the edifice at Jerusalem is meant but also the church, the consummation or end of which is treated of in the whole chapter.

    But what else could have been expected from that council, or from those that followed, which in like manner divided the Godhead into three, and placed God in the flesh beneath them on their footstool?

    For by climbing up some other way they took the Head of the church away from its body, that is, they passed Him by, and mounted beyond to God the Father as to another, with the mere mention on their lips of Christ's merit, that is, that God on account of it might be merciful, and justification might flow into them directly with all that goes with it, namely, remission of sins, renovation, sanctification, regeneration, and salvation, and this without any meditation on man's part.

    Harry
     
  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    destinata7, I didn't ask you for your conjecture. I asked you for evidence that Constantine "pressured" the early church fathers to shift their day of worship tp Sunday. Do you have evidence or not?
     
  12. Juble

    Juble Member

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    Would you please type 'Constantine+Sunday+worship’ in Google. Once you have done this you will clearly see the evidence you are seeking. It seems to me that you do not have any intention of addressing destinata7's issues that he/she has tried to present for discussion; so here is an abundance of evidence at your index finger.

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...antine+Sunday+worship'&amp;btnG=Google+Search

    destinata7, what point were you trying to make regarding the Council of Nicea?
     
  13. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    What am I getting at about the Coucil of Nicea? At last! I can finally get to the point! Constantine's insistense on having the church make a decision was premature. The church world was very split between the Trinitarians and the Non-Trinitarians. They weren't yet called Trinitarians but we'll use that term anyway. The two gentlemen in the eye of this storm were Arius (against the Trinity) and Athanasius ( for the Trinity).


    Here's my statement, and I can back this up by the Holy Bible itself if anyone out there is truly interested:

    Arius and Athanasius both had it wrong!



    If you are interested in learning more about this, log on to www.soundtron.com and listen to a free audio download titled "Who is God?"

    You can also log on to our forum on www.soundtron.com and look under "the Trinity" for scriptures pertaining to this subject.



    Destinata7
     
  14. Juble

    Juble Member

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    I can't wait to see this. By all means please, back it up.
     
  15. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    The Creed according to the Catholic Church:
    Whosoever will be saved, it is necessary that he hold this Christian Faith; and the Christian Faith is, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, not confounding the Trine of Person, nor dividing the Essence.

    The Trine of one Person is what is called the Father,Son and Holy Spirit. The Divinity of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit is one and the same, the glory and majesty equal.

    Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father is uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate.

    The Father is infinite,the Son infinite,and the Holy Spirit infinite. And yet there are not three infinities, nor three uncreates, but one Uncreate, and one Infinite.

    So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty.And yet there are not three almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; and yet there are not three gods,but one God.

    So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord; and yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.

    For as by the Christian verity we acknowledge a trine in one Person, who is God and Lord, so by the Christian faith we can say one God and one Lord.

    The Father is made of none, neither created, nor born the Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but born the Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, not made, nor created, nor born, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

    And in this Trinity none is greatest or least, but they are altogether equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, is to be worshiped.

    Who can understand all this non-sense?

    Harry
     
  16. Juble

    Juble Member

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    LOL...

    Not me.
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Good morning, Juble, and thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, your ability to use a search engine does not relieve you of the responsibility for correctly evaluating the results. If you've found evidence of Constantine presuring the early church to adopt Sunday as its Sabbath, feel free to reference it.
     
  18. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    Good morning Deut,

    The Sabbath means coming to a trueful understanding of God,and living according to that understanding. The six days of creations has something to do with the Sabbath,because it means the regeneration of man and his soul. Lots of people go to church on Sunday out of habit,not out of understanding.

    Going to church on Sunday is only a form of external worship, but the true worship is inside the person, which is called the internal,which means worship in spirit. External worship without the internal is not the true worship. According to the Gospel of Thomas,which was shun be the Catholic Church,it saids,"The Kingdom of God is within you and all around you."

    The doctrine of three Divine persons and faith alone, both in past ages and at the present day, has sprung solely from a failure to understand the Divine Essence of God.

    The unity of God is inmostly inscribed on the mind of every man, since it lies at the center of all that flows from God into the soul of man.

    It has not descended into the human understanding, for the reason that the knowledges by which man must ascend to meet God have been lacking.

    For everyone must prepare the way for God, that is, must prepare himself for reception.This is done by means of true knowledge.

    The knowledge that have been lacking, and that enable the understanding to penetrate far enough to see that God is one,not three, and that more than one Divine Essence is impossible. More than one Divine Essence means a son of God born from eternity before creation. A son of God before creation contradicts the says of Jehovah God in Isaiah.

    Am I not Jehovah, and there is no God beside Me? There is no righteous God and Saviour beside Me. Isa. 45:21, 22.

    I am Jehovah, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Isa. 43:11.

    Like I posted above,people go church on Sunday without understanding.

    It is said that the man understanding raises by true knowledge of God,but the truth is that his understanding is raised up by God,not by himself.

    For in acquiring knowledges for himself man exercises his freedom of choice, but as he acquires for himself knowledges from the Word by means of his understanding he prepares the way by which God comes down and raises him up.

    The knowledges by means of which the human understanding rises up to God, God holding it in His hand and leading it, may be likened to the steps of the ladder seen in a dream by Jacob, which was set upon the earth with the top of it reaching to heaven, by which the angels ascended while Jehovah stood above it (Gen. 28:12, 13).

    Harry
     
  19. Juble

    Juble Member

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    I wish destinata7 would have responded back. Truth is he was correct. Both Arius and Athanasius were way off.

    While Constantine formed a council, to make a decision and call it absolute else his kingdom would implode; Constantine himself was a very distant Christian (I use the word Christian loosely) and his interest was stopping the bitter religious feuds only.

    There were delegates/ambassadors from the original church of the apostles that never made it to the great council. These church leaders believed in one God period. They believed that the name of God was proclaimed on the Earth to the shepherd’s on a hill. Jesus was/is God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus was/is God and the others were/are simply attributes of God much like my name is Juble and I am a father, I'm a husband and a son; I am one person but, have many different attributes or titles.
    These church leaders were assassinated in route to Nicea.
    Had they made it to the council they would have stood squarely on the truth the apostles themselves knew and taught.

    Acts 2:38 records Peter with God given authority preaching the truth which all disciples concurred with. The three steps to receiving salvation are repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and receiving the Holy Ghost (which is evident by speaking in other tongues as the spirit of God gives the utterance).
    Mary, James, John, Peter, Paul, Mary Magdalene and all else were baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Spirit.

    Even though this truth was slated to be snuffed out there has been a traceable thread of one God (whose name is Jesus) and Jesus name baptism believers that has flourished from the beginning until now.
     
  20. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Good evening, SpiritualSon.

    No, it does not. Nor is your preaching, whatever its intrinsic value, at all relevant to the factual issue under discussion.
     
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