The T-V distinction

[Estro Felino]

T–V distinction - Wikipedia
Also known as pronoun of courtesy in some languages. It is present in most European languages, that is a pronoun that replaces the you, to address yourself to strangers or to senior people or top-grade people (professors, teachers, boss, employers, etc etc).

Also in different European countries, this pronoun varies a lot.
In Spanish there is a pronoun ad hoc called usted (you singular) and ustedes (you plural); in French and in Russian they use the second person plural (Vous-Vy capitalized). In German they use the They (Sie capitalized) as pronoun of courtesy; in Italian the She (Lei capitalized).

Do you know non-European languages where the T-V distinction still exists?
I guess it is considered something outdated...that is why the English language doesn't have such distinction.
Thank you in advance for your opinion.

 

[Altfish]

T–V distinction - Wikipedia
Also known as pronoun of courtesy in some languages. It is present in most European languages, that is a pronoun that replaces the you, to address yourself to strangers or to senior people or top-grade people (professors, teachers, boss, employers, etc etc).

Also in different European countries, this pronoun varies a lot.
In Spanish there is a pronoun ad hoc called usted (you singular) and ustedes (you plural); in French and in Russian they use the second person plural (Vous-Vy capitalized). In German they use the They (Sie capitalized) as pronoun of courtesy; in Italian the She (Lei capitalized).

Do you know non-European languages where the T-V distinction still exists?
I guess it is considered something outdated...that is why the English language doesn't have such distinction.
Thank you in advance for your opinion.

This does not (I don't think) happen in English.
There used to be the pronoun "thy" but it has long since fallen into disuse.
I suppose you could argue that the use of the word "Your" to replace "You" when addressing some dignitaries, eg Your Highness, Your Grace but I've never used it because I don't move in such circles

 

[ChristineM]

This does not (I don't think) happen in English.
There used to be the pronoun "thy" but it has long since fallen into disuse.
I suppose you could argue that the use of the word "Your" to replace "You" when addressing some dignitaries, eg Your Highness, Your Grace but I've never used it because I don't move in such circles

That's something I've never done "your grace" whoever it is gets addressed to in the same way as anyone else.
I don't even use "sir" or "madam" (unless I'm being sarcastic)
Never met a "your highness" or "your majesty" but i would imagine the same casualness would apply.

 

[Jainarayan]

I guess it is considered something outdated...that is why the English language doesn't have such distinction.

No, languages tend to simplify over time. It just happens. English simply "collapsed" the pronouns into the "you" form. English dropped its case endings and uses prepositions more extensively. Actually, Spanish also collapsed the pronouns. Usted and ustedes are a collapse of "vuestra merced(es)", meaning your grace(s), in the second person plural, the polite form.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Lei and Loro becoming less frequent in Italian, with most people using tu/voi? I was taught, back in the day that Lei and Loro were very commonly used to be very polite and respectful, while voi was used even for a single person to be polite. I remember having a subscription to the Italian Reader's Digest. They used the voi form almost exclusively when addressing readers.

Sanskrit has kept the t-v distinction, and has three numbers, single, dual and plural in eight cases:
tvám, tva, tubhyam, te, tvat, tava, tvayi (singular)
yuvā́m, yuvā́bhyām, yuváyos, vām (dual)
yūyám, yuṣmā́n, vas, yuṣmā́bhis, yuṣmábhyam, vas, yuṣmát, yuṣmā́kam, vas, yuṣmāsu (plural)

There are duplicate uses, the form depends on the case ending (nominative, dative, accusative, etc.), and yes you have to learn them all, though some are used very infrequently and even rarely. It's a lot easier when you learn them in their contexts and by example.

 

[Jainarayan]

I don't even use "sir" or "madam" (unless I'm being sarcastic)

Working in retail I use sir and ma'am very frequently. Come to think of it, I use it a lot even when not working. You'll find that most military and law enforcement types (and us wannabes) use them a lot.

 

[ChristineM]

Working in retail I use sir and ma'am very frequently. Come to think of it, I use it a lot even when not working. You'll find that most military and law enforcement types (and us wannabes) use them a lot.

True, but i always like things on a equal footing.

I would have failed miserably in amy official chain of command.

 

[Estro Felino]

That's something I've never done "your grace" whoever it is gets addressed to in the same way as anyone else.
I don't even use "sir" or "madam" (unless I'm being sarcastic)
Never met a "your highness" or "your majesty" but i would imagine the same casualness would apply.

The French use the Vous with practically everyone.
They are the opposite of Italians who tend to use the Tu even with the butcher or the produce seller.

Germans are pretty like us...I mean ...they use the pronoun of courtesy under specific circumstances like workplace, university, school...etc...

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

T–V distinction - Wikipedia
Also known as pronoun of courtesy in some languages. It is present in most European languages, that is a pronoun that replaces the you, to address yourself to strangers or to senior people or top-grade people (professors, teachers, boss, employers, etc etc).

Also in different European countries, this pronoun varies a lot.
In Spanish there is a pronoun ad hoc called usted (you singular) and ustedes (you plural); in French and in Russian they use the second person plural (Vous-Vy capitalized). In German they use the They (Sie capitalized) as pronoun of courtesy; in Italian the She (Lei capitalized).

Do you know non-European languages where the T-V distinction still exists?
I guess it is considered something outdated...that is why the English language doesn't have such distinction.
Thank you in advance for your opinion.

It very much exists in dutch / flemish. It's not non-european, but I think it's interesting.

The distinction however is not singular / plural forms to address a single person. They are all singular uses, but the difference between them is absolutely 100% about familiarity / respect / politeness.

And there aren't 2 forms, but 3. Although one of them could be seen as a dialect, but it very much is a "correct" dutch word that you'll find in the dictionary.

These are the following (from "very familiar" to "very respectfull / formal"):

"Gij / ge" = how you will address your drinking buddies, close friends, family... people of your inner social circle; can be considered dialect
"Jij / je" = how you will address people of equal statue in polite, yet formal form
"U" = how you will address people of equal or higher statue in very polite and informal form

This even extends itself to possessive pronouns...

"jouw boek" = your book; formal
"uw boek" = your book; informal

I think it's quite interesting that in english such differences of addressing someone is considered "outdated" to the point that it completely faded from the language, while in dutch this is very very much present. To the point that if an unknown person addresses you with "gij", you instantly almost automatically think "what an impolite sob".

 

[ChristineM]

The French use the Vous with practically everyone.
They are the opposite of Italians who tend to use the Tu even with the butcher or the produce seller.

Germans are pretty like us...I mean ...they use the pronoun of courtesy under specific circumstances like workplace, university, school...etc...

I find Tu, Te and Toi are used more often once any formally is over.

 

[Secret Chief]

That's something I've never done "your grace" whoever it is gets addressed to in the same way as anyone else.
I don't even use "sir" or "madam" (unless I'm being sarcastic)
Never met a "your highness" or "your majesty" but i would imagine the same casualness would apply.

You'd refer to me as sir at work or you'd be in detention

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I find Tu and Toi are used more often once any formally is over.

Indeed.

I have a bunch of customers in Wallonie, french speakers.

The first few times I have them on the phone, it will be "vous" this and "vous" that.
Once I'm familiar enough with them, to the point that we get on first name basis, that quickly gets replaced by "tu" and "toi".

 

[ChristineM]

Indeed.

I have a bunch of customers in Wallonie, french speakers.

The first few times I have them on the phone, it will be "vous" this and "vous" that.
Once I'm familiar enough with them, to the point that we get on first name basis, that quickly gets replaced by "tu" and "toi".

French is very formal until aquatinted, then it relaxes.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You'd refer to me as sir at work or you'd be in detention

Not in my company.

We make a point about being a team and very open in communication.
Yes, I am "the boss", but that only means that I decide what feature we'll develop next in our software.

I make a big point about our internal communication to be very formal, as you would speak to your friends at the bar.
I feel like people are far more comfortable speaking that way and it makes communication a lot more easier.

People tend to tip-to less at that point and get the feeling that they can tell me anything.
I want them to be comfortable and feel at home instead of feeling like they have to be walking on eggshells all the time.

When talking to customers though... that's something else entirely.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have a master's degree in engineering.
I want to be addressed as "Master".
(Compliance is progressing very slowly.)
BTW, my maternal grandpa's first name was Bates.
So he avoided ever earning a masters degree.
(But while in the Navy, he still endured an unfortunate moniker.)

 

[Jainarayan]

True, but i always like things on a equal footing.

You're right, but sadly that's not always the case ... service people, retail associates, wait staff, are often treated like we can't do any better in life. I think maybe it's people that don't have any control or respect in their own lives.

 

[Estro Felino]

I find Tu, Te and Toi are used more often once any formally is over.

I confess I hate when someone address me with the Lei.
Once I told someone: please address me with the Tu.

Romans use the Tu even with strangers. The Lei is considered something very unfriendly...

 

[Secret Chief]

Not in my company.

We make a point about being a team and very open in communication.
Yes, I am "the boss", but that only means that I decide what feature we'll develop next in our software.

I make a big point about our internal communication to be very formal, as you would speak to your friends at the bar.
I feel like people are far more comfortable speaking that way and it makes communication a lot more easier.

People tend to tip-to less at that point and get the feeling that they can tell me anything.
I want them to be comfortable and feel at home instead of feeling like they have to be walking on eggshells all the time.

When talking to customers though... that's something else entirely.

I should clarify. I work in a school and the pupils refer to staff as sir or miss. Staff do it too if pupils are present. Weirdly staff sometimes use the terms when no pupils are around. Just habit I suppose.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I should clarify. I work in a school and the pupils refer to staff as sir or miss. Staff do it too if pupils are present. Weirdly staff sometimes use the terms when no pupils are around. Just habit I suppose.

Ha, yes.

It makes sense. In a school, it's kind of important for teachers to be in a position of authority. Using such language to address teachers has a very big psychological impact in terms of recognizing hierarchy.

Exactly also the reason why I don't want that on my workfloor. I'm the boss in name only. For all practical purposes, we are a team of equals working towards a common goal.

And if I say or do something stupid, I want them the employees to feel comfortable enough to call me out on it without having to sugarcoat it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Working in retail I use sir and ma'am very frequently. Come to think of it, I use it a lot even when not working. You'll find that most military and law enforcement types (and us wannabes) use them a lot.

Working with customers is how I fell out of habit using it. It's easier, quicker, and avoids entirely the possibility of embarrassing mistakes. A friendly greeting is a friendly greeting to most, with or without adding gender.

 

[Jainarayan]

Working with customers is how I fell out of habit using it. It's easier, quicker, and avoids entirely the possibility of embarrassing mistakes. A friendly greeting is a friendly greeting to most, with or without adding gender.

Well yeah, there's that. I had a couple of occasions when I really didn't know if it was a man or a woman. It wasn't a case of transitioning, it was an older man who had very old lady-like features, and an older woman who looked like an old man. So yeah, I was on the horns of a dilemma. In seriousness a problem could have come about when they didn't pay attention to being called, being the next in line, for example.