Muffled
Jesus in me
Myth means there is no historical record. Since God exists throughout all history what He says is historical.
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The so-called global flood--evidence against
- Thread starter IndigoChild5559
- Start date
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Then you do not know what is and what is no evidence or you are just being silly or both. You are also claiming that your God is a liar.
Does God lie? If the answer is no then you cannot read Genesis literally. I can help you to learn how we know that, but I cannot force you to learn.
That is true. This is why you should learn whenever possible. It helps one from making silly mistakes, such as mistakenly calling one's own god a liar. I am not saying that I can prove that there is no God. I can only disprove long ago refuted versions of God.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, now you are assuming that God gave the record. We can test ideas to see if they are accurate or not. Genesis did not come from God as history. It may have come from him as an inspired morality tale.
Heyo
Veteran Member
You can't.
You don't address the problem when you confront a YEC with scientific evidence against the flood. The problem is not that they lack education in geology, biology, astronomy or physics, the problem is that they lack education in science as an idea and in epistemology, often also logic. You can't convince someone with evidence, who doesn't know, what evidence is or believe in it.
We know that YEC are conspiracy theorists, and you simply can't break through their defences with facts.
Addendum: I don't really address the YEC, when I answer with facts. The facts are for the audience who may otherwise be influenced by the conspiracy theory.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Actually, it does if one looks at this objectively and scientifically.
"Myth", in the theological context, does not mean nor imply falsehood. It's the use of the ancient art of "storytelling" to get certain messages across, and Jesus used that technique with his parables.
That doesn't work if one checks it out as the numbers of animals, for example, don't match.
In what I said, there would mainly be for example little variation in color and size, not dozens of speciation events PER DAY.
I would like to see the actual data.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Can you be specific? What data do you want to see? I will gladly do so if you can demonstrate that you are able to understand it. It is hypocritical to demand evidence when you cannot evaluate it properly. This is why I refuse to supply evidence to science deniers until they at the very least learn what is and what is not evidence.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Can you show your work?
Tamino
Active Member
"Little Variation in color and size" won't give you the necessary wide variation of species on earth today... especially not if you try to include extinct groups.
For example, try elephants. They have a long gestation and age slowly, leading to a very long generation time. Then figure in all the extinct types and weird-looking relatives, and you cannot repopulate the entire planet and develop all of those species in matter of centuries.
You could, of course, propose that all the extinct species went extinct before or during the flood... but then you're just painting yourself into a corner, because then all your proposed "flood layers" in the stratigraphy all end up being pre-flood.
All the measurements about the ages of strata on bottom of the Atlantic ocean and also the exact places where they were taken (location and depth).
There were about 500 animal families that were in the ark. And I assume this means for example that there were one bear family that are the ancestors of all modern bears. The variations in bear family are not very big. I don't see any good reason to think it could not be possible in about 6000 years.
I don't think there was any big changes, like rat to bat.
By what I know, there are 9 different looking members of Proboscidea family. If the ark had 2 members of Proboscidea family, the changes from that are not very significant, about the same as African and Asian people. Also, it is possible that some of the "extinct species" are actually just deformed members of regular existing species.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
No, there would not.
Your nonsense requires all bear species to come from a single breeding pair in just a few millenia.
The difference between these species is not a mere "little variation in color and size".
It's absurd to even suggest that.
The same goes for all other species.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
And we don't even need to go there either.
For example:
Analysis of nuclear DNA sequences indicates that the genetic divergence between African bush and forest elephants dates 2.6 – 5.6 million years ago.
African elephant - Wikipedia
This all ties into exactly what I said: his silly beliefs require him to not only accept evolution, he requires SUPER DUPER MEGA evolution on STEROIDS, going at a rate hundreds, if not thousands of times, the speed of what we actually observe in nature.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Wait a second, then you have to admit that the ages from radiometric dating are reliable.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Funny how they do not hold their own beliefs to same standards...
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Yeah, but he also just put himself into a heads I win tails he loses jam.
Tamino
Active Member
1 - Bears. Black bears, grizzlies and Polar bears are reasonably close and can or could interbreed
But Giant Pandas and spectacled bears are much different. And what about other animals such as the Red Panda and the Koala which aren't bears at all?
2 - 6000 years? Think again, you have 1000 max. If the world was created around 6000 years ago and the flood was about 4400 years ago, then you need to have the world repopulated and the animals distributed and diversified by around 1500 BCE to account for all the historical records and archaeological finds coming in from Bronze Age and Iron Age societies all over the world.
The model doesn't work.
There was never a change from rat to bat, don't worry. Chiroptera are a wholly different order of mammals than rodentia.
I highly recommend the informative and entertaining videos from "Clint's Reptiles" on phylogeny, I learned lots of cool new stuff there.
9?? There are 58 genera listed on Wikipedia... Never mind species. Varying in size from about 1meter to 4 meters at the shoulder, with different variations of trunks, tusks and general morphology.
The creationist idea that some fossils represent pathological deformations is not supported by evidence, afaik. There might be very rare examples of such a thing, but the observed differences between species are usually not of such a nature that they suggest a sickness or defect.
Also, consider probability. Of any extinct species, fossils are very rare. We only find and study a tiny percentage of their original numbers. A "deformed" individual would be pretty rare in any population, making the probability of it being preserved and found much smaller.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Or AronRa's highly informative series, that I link here frequently.
The thing I find especially educating is that he explains by what a clade is defined.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I really liked Aron's systematic approach. Though if I am dealing with Christians I like Clint because he is a Christian too.