The shady one-man corporation that's destroying hip-hop.

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Except when a hook is approached in two different manners, it could be two totally different hooks.

[youtube]U5tqAbrZeX0[/youtube]
Isaac Hayes: Walk On By [Live at Music Scene, 1969] - YouTube

[youtube]2cjv7hEAytU[/youtube]
Tupac - Me Against The World - YouTube

Hey, he really took that hook away and reused it.

From one listening it sounds to me that the (only) sample was from the electric guitar track.

If you're talking about just a few notes like that,
pick up the damn guitar and play it yourself.
If you play it with just one ounce of personal interpretation
and your own guitar and amp sound
it will come out different enough
that it won't be exactly the same thing.
And legally it won't be a sample of someone else
it will be a sample of you.

I'm sorry. I still don't get it.

Why the need to use the sample at all?
Even if the song was inspired by an element of a pre-existing one,
why even use the sample
if it's only gunna cause you to get sued later.
Just make it a completely original work.

Looping chord progressions, and short isolated melodic lines
are hardly anything anyone can claim ownership of.
This is basic music theory in action.

A syncopated repeated melodic whole step
to a ("bent") major third
(as was most of the primary guitar sample)
isolated,
might be an exercise found in a beginners (blues/jazz) lesson book.

So why sample it? Why not just PLAY it.
Then who could say anything about it?

Obviously I'm not hip enough to understand why it must be sampled.

The Tupac song was just FINE on it's own.
I'm sure they could have found someone to break out an electric guitar.
Even I could have played the part,
and guitar is just my second instrument.

 

[blackout]

And Dustin, don't play the race card with me.

I am a Jazz musician.

eye rolls and such are unnecessary as well.
If there's something you feel I don't understand about the situation
simply explain it.
I'm not a bigot. Nor am I a moron.

 

[blackout]

Now, if you want to pay tribute to an existing piece of music/artist
keeping the sample purposely recognizable
and it is not in the public domain
you might just as well contact the original artist first.
Why not?

If it need not be recognizable
just play the lines yourself as a motif
inspired by something else.
If it's not an actual sample,
(of someone else)
how can you get sued for it?

 

[blackout]

So now I'm thinking about jazz standards,
(mostly songs from musical theatre, and standards written by jazz musicians themselves)
and cover tune remakes.
(of any genre)

I have no idea who legally needs to be paid for what usage rights
in any particular situations when it comes to recording and sales.

I wouldn't market any CD without knowing first though.

If the law says 30 seconds of sample time is allowable,
then that should be the game rule.
It's not fair play to just change the rules in the middle.
Whatever the laws are in each case
it's the recording artists responsibility to know before marketing
and the courtrooms responsibility to rule by in dispute.

In any case,
CoverYourOwnA..

Especially if you're the little guy.

 

[dust1n]

From one listening it sounds to me that the (only) sample was from the electric guitar track.

The bass and drums are overpowered by external layering and eqing.

If you're talking about just a few notes like that,
pick up the damn guitar and play it yourself.

We all know Tupac was know for this guitar playing. :areyoucra There is only one song on the album that is original, most of the songs use multiple layers.

If you play it with just one ounce of personal interpretation
and your own guitar and amp sound
it will come out different enough
that it won't be exactly the same thing.
And legally it won't be a sample of someone else
it will be a sample of you.

But it was played with more than an ounce of personal interpretation? It came from someone's own record player, and they sampled in their own way. It did come out different enough.. 4 measures of a song is hardly an entire song.

I'm sorry. I still don't get it.

Get what?

Why the need to use the sample at all?
Even if the song was inspired by an element of a pre-existing one,
why even use the sample
if it's only gunna cause you to get sued later.
Just make it a completely original work.

Few rappers start off with their own band? What's to get? You want to rap, and either you have a band or you don't. If you don't, what are you going to do?

Looping chord progressions, and short isolated melodic lines
are hardly anything anyone can claim ownership of.
This is basic music theory in action.

If it was 'basic music theory' in action, the majority of music would not be allowed to exist... Everything in Western music theory involving melody and harmony had been explored by the 50's.

A syncopated repeated melodic whole step
to a ("bent") major third
(as was most of the primary guitar sample)
isolated,
might be an exercise found in a beginners (blues/jazz) lesson book.

Because the sample is rarely the focus, unlike described by HonestJoe. What gimmick comes with the majority of sampling when you don't even know it's a sample?

So why sample it? Why not just PLAY it.
Then who could say anything about it?

If you played the same thing it would be just as illegal as sampling it.

Obviously I'm not hip enough to understand why it must be sampled.

I don't know if it has anything to do with coolness.

The Tupac song was just FINE on it's own.
I'm sure they could have found someone to break out an electric guitar.
Even I could have played the part,
and guitar is just my second instrument.

If you played the same part it would be just as illegal as sampling the piece...

 

[dust1n]

And Dustin, don't play the race card with me.

Did I?

I am a Jazz musician.

eye rolls and such are unnecessary as well.
If there's something you feel I don't understand about the situation
simply explain it.
I'm not a bigot. Nor am I a moron.

Sorry not to offend. Smiles aren't meant to illustrate, I guess. I'm not 100% sure what you don't understand about the situation, but I will try my best to answer any questions.

 

[dust1n]

Now, if you want to pay tribute to an existing piece of music/artist
keeping the sample purposely recognizable
and it is not in the public domain
you might just as well contact the original artist first.
Why not?

They probably don't own it if they sold albums before the 80's/90's.

If it need not be recognizable
just play the lines yourself as a motif
inspired by something else.
If it's not an actual sample,
(of someone else)
how can you get sued for it?

You can be sued for compositional thievery just like you can sampling. Plus rappers don't play instruments.

 

[blackout]

I have no youtube here,
and without it
I just can't illustrate what I want, simply.

Four or five isolated melodic notes are not a composition.
An arpeggio pattern is not a composition.
Two or three chords do not a composition make.


That's like saying the sentence
"Get out of my house!" is a complete and unique composition
and can only be used by one writer ever.
And that it belongs to whoever managed to write it down first.

ie, You can't "own" something so short and simple that it could
merely be considered the syntax of a language.
You can't own a prepositional phrase
any more than you can own a patterned chord arpeggio.

 

[blackout]

So are you telling me that "Me Against the World"
is made up completely of musical samples
from different songs, like a collage?
And that no parts were added instrumentally?

I would love to hear ALL the songs that was compiled from.
Just out of pure musical curiosity.

I don't recal hearing that three chord progression
anywhere in the older song you posted above it,
and certainly not in the same instrumentation.
As well the keyboard melody over top
did not come from Walk on By.

Now I'm truly curious to know how this was all put together
from other sources. I'm interested.

 

[dust1n]

So are you telling me that "Me Against the World"
is made up completely of musical samples
from different songs, like a collage?
And that no parts were added instrumentally?

Me Against the World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
scroll down to the section "tracklisting"

Rarely anything buy a basic 'beat' is added, and those are usually made with unidentifiable drums (back in the those days, at least).

 

[dust1n]

I have no youtube here,
and without it
I just can't illustrate what I want, simply.

Four or five isolated melodic notes are not a composition.
An arpeggio pattern is not a composition.
Two or three chords do not a composition make.


That's like saying the sentence
"Get out of my house!" is a complete and unique composition
and can only be used by one writer ever.
And that it belongs to whoever managed to write it down first.

ie, You can't "own" something so short and simple that it could
merely be considered the syntax of a language.
You can't own a prepositional phrase
any more than you can own a patterned chord arpeggio.

Why not? If you write 200 measures, shouldn't every single measure be yours? Even variations obviously based off the original work?

 

[blackout]

One measure alone often does not contain a full cohesive idea.
It would be like pulling out 4 or 5 words from the middle of a longer sentence,
found in the middle of a 200 page novella.
One piece of a 200 piece puzzle will probably not tell us very much.

It can give us a hint at/of the style,
probably not much else.

 

[blackout]

Me Against the World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
scroll down to the section "tracklisting"

Rarely anything buy a basic 'beat' is added, and those are usually made with unidentifiable drums (back in the those days, at least).

I'm thinkin' Soulshock and Karlin produced Me Against the World
with (or as) studio musicians.
Just a guess.

I only hear the guitar sample.
I could actually figure out 'Walk on By' to be sure
the 'Me Against the World' progression isn't hidden in there somewhere obscurely,
but It just doesn't seem worth the effort.
I really don't even like the song.
(Walk on By, that is)

 

[blackout]

As well, Tupac is makin money.

If he owes legitimate legal copywrite usage, so big deal.
That's life.
I'd LOVE to use just any songs I want in my piano/keyboard method series
without permission or payment issues.
It doesn't mean I can.

 

[blackout]

k. Thanks for the musical outlet.

I may somehow be sidetracking the thread,
so I'll step out of the convo now.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Not the biggest fan of Hip-Hop, but got to admit it takes talent, sample or none. And Jay-Z being a top of the industry musician who created his own success from scratch, he will bounce back. He doesn't even need the sampling though.

Though some act as if the sampling is lame. But these artist take the sample and mix it up. If sampling was banned, say good bye to alot of great music

 

[InformedIgnorance]

There are also justifiable cases where people such as song writers are unable to gain adequate recompense because the vastly more wealthy and better set up (in terms of their ability to construct their operational and legal positions) artists and record labels can simply bully them into silence. Perhaps a little of their own medicine will teach them something... how to be even more nasty?

 

[dust1n]

I'm thinkin' Soulshock and Karlin produced Me Against the World
with (or as) studio musicians.
Just a guess.

The Wikipedia reveals, at the bottom, the composing material. Most are samples.

I only hear the guitar sample.

I could actually figure out 'Walk on By' to be sure
the 'Me Against the World' progression isn't hidden in there somewhere obscurely,
but It just doesn't seem worth the effort.
I really don't even like the song.
(Walk on By, that is)

The video of the original is a live performance of the song, not the recorded song in which the sample was taken.

 

[dust1n]

As well, Tupac is makin money.

If he owes legitimate legal copywrite usage, so big deal.
That's life.
I'd LOVE to use just any songs I want in my piano/keyboard method series
without permission or payment issues.
It doesn't mean I can.

Tupac was killed a decade and a half ago.

 

[dust1n]

One measure alone often does not contain a full cohesive idea.
It would be like pulling out 4 or 5 words from the middle of a longer sentence,
found in the middle of a 200 page novella.
One piece of a 200 piece puzzle will probably not tell us very much.

It can give us a hint at/of the style,
probably not much else.

That was the basis used to sue!