The Shabbat Thread

[WhyIsThatSo]

Thank you. And this is why a few people believe Christ died on Wednesday. But the body had to be buried before sunset because sabbath rules applied the next day. So the majority believe the next day was Saturday. If there is any way that sabbath rules could apply on Thursday, it might add some possibility to the belief. We do not that it was at the time of the Passover so Thursday MIGHT have been the first day of unleavened bread. I wonder if modern computers could recreate calendars for several years approximately 2000 years ago? Just see if any years had the Passover celebration starting on Thursday and any on Saturday. Could be an interesting project for a computer jeek.

I'm one of those "few".....and the calculations have been done,
so you are correct.

 

[Deeje]

The ancient Jews dealt with the same Biblical Laws as we do. What separates us from them, is that they were more mindful: they didn't need Rabbinic additions to prevent Biblical transgressions, because they were able to be mindful of the Biblical prohibitions and avoid them.

It seems to me as if being "more mindful of the prohibitions" was all that God required. What constitutes "work" was clearly laid out in the 39 requirements.....why did it need explanation to the point of adding 39 'categories' which then became more laws? There is no scriptural evidence of an oral tradition from Moses.

I believe it was as Jesus (a devout Jew) said....“The Sabbath came into existence for the sake of man, and not man for the sake of the Sabbath."

You see the 'spirit of the law' is expressed here? But it appears that the Jewish people are enslaved to the letter of the Law, rather than the spirit of the Law being for the benefit of the people.

I see a lot of subjective judgements here, but nothing really worth arguing against. Where does it say that being legalistic is wrong? On what basis do you claim that the ancient Pharisees were only legalistic? There's nothing of substance here, but it's the entire basis of your position.

As I said....Reading through the restrictions, don't we get a sense of how legally minded the Pharisees were in dictating what is, or isn't part of Sabbath Law?

Activities prohibited on Shabbat - Wikipedia..... Its an interesting read and helps us understand why the Jews stumbled over Jesus, who did not support the rabbinical definitions of "work", whilst he respected the spirit of the law....something he said that the 'legalistic' Pharisees had lost.

To lose the spirit of the Law is to make the Law a burden to carry, sticking to a rigid interpretation of it, rather than it being something that is refreshing and protective.

Jesus said to his Jewish audience...."Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you. Take my yoke upon you and become my disciples.” (Matthew 11:28-29)

He understood how loaded down the people were with all this micro-management of the Law. He said to take his yoke, serving God with him....meaning that he would work with these ones and lighten that burden, resulting in refreshment rather than carrying the burdens by themselves, which many had given up trying to do.

He showed them how to observe the Law without making it into an impossible and enslaving burden.

For instance, there is nothing inherently wrong with an elevator, it's the electronic circuitry that is problematic. There are different opinions on what exactly is wrong with completing a[n electronic] circuit. According to some opinions the problem relates to one of the 39 Biblically prohibited categories and according to other opinions, it's prohibited because it doesn't fit the spirit of the day.

But an elevator operates on electricity.....and opinions are not laws...are they? Completing an electrical circuit is not lighting a fire unless a vivid imagination (or dare I say an OCD approach) in these things, makes their adherence into something incomprehensible. Especially is this true when so many attempts are made to circumvent the made up parts of the Law, so that they can still break them. (Automatic light switches...elevators that stop on every floor so that Jews don't have to press buttons...)
Do you see what I am seeing?

No, I'm pretty sure the verse you're referring to is referring to the Sabbatical year, not the Sabbath.

It just says it was a Sabbath....

Matthew was a bit misleading and you missed it. There's no prohibition in helping the animal get out of the pit on the Sabbath. Ideally, we're supposed to throw food to it for the duration of the Sabbath and bring it out after the Sabbath. If that's not a possibility, then we're supposed to throw objects that the animal can use to climb out of the pit. What we can't do is pick up the animal.

Again...what is this kind of thinking? You can't pick up the animals but you can pick up things to throw to it? Forgive me but, seriously is "we're supposed to" a Law, or an opinion about the Law?
You can't pick up things with your hands but can move them with your teeth or your elbow...? Why?

With regards to medical treatment, there is no such Biblical prohibition. What there is, is a Rabbinical enactment prohibiting medical treatment on the Sabbath in many cases (not all). The reason for this prohibition is because ignorance abounds and an ignorant Jew watching me take an herbal remedy (as many medical treatments were in times past) is likely no aware that I had already prepared the remedy before the Sabbath. They might assume that I've ground the herbs on the spot as needed (and probably as was commonly done) and come to do so themselves on the Sabbath. But grinding herbs on the Sabbath is considered a Biblical prohibition. So I will have been party to their transgression. Because we are all responsible for each other, it's incumbent on me to suffer a little to save my brother or sister from transgressing this serious prohibition.

So if a person inadvertently transgresses a law but has not intended to, do you see God's judgment as coming upon a person in the same way as one who did so deliberately? Isn't this why God gave the Law, so that the heart of individuals would move them to obey him out of love.....not out of fear.

Isaiah 11:3-4 says of God....
"And he shall judge the poor justly, and he shall chastise with equity the humble of the earth, and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips he shall put the wicked to death. דוְשָׁפַ֚ט בְּצֶ֙דֶק֙ דַּלִּ֔ים וְהוֹכִ֥יחַ בְּמִישׁ֖וֹר לְעַנְוֵי־אָ֑רֶץ וְהִכָּה־אֶ֙רֶץ֙ בְּשֵׁ֣בֶט פִּ֔יו וּבְר֥וּחַ שְׂפָתָ֖יו יָמִ֥ית רָשָֽׁע"

God deals differently with those who transgress his laws inadvertently, compared to those who do so deliberately, but what about those who look for ways to dodge the prohibitions? Are loopholes OK with you? Are they OK with God?

So, trying to understand......what you go on is "a Rabbinical enactment prohibiting medical treatment on the Sabbath in many cases". Is a "Rabbinical enactment" the same as a Law of God? If different "Rabbinical" opinions leave some of these questions undecided, what is a devout Jew to conclude....do you just pick the Rabbi whose opinions agree with your own?
So there is no scriptural basis as to why many medical treatments are forbidden on the Sabbath?

G-d's, obviously.

I asked..."the question is whose laws are you obeying really?" Are you saying that the Rabbis, whose opinions apparently differ, are all speaking for God when they interpret the 39 restrictions in different ways? How is that possible?

The difference between us is that where you see a burden, we see a wonderful opportunity.

Its a wonderful "opportunity" for what? To perform rituals and enact restrictions that to outsiders make no sense at all, or was the Sabbath Law given so that a day of complete rest and engagement in spiritual activities could be enjoyed as a family and a community?

It seems from the comments of other Jews that the Sabbath restrictions have to grow on you (or with you), being immersed in them from infancy, you gradually accept what to a child may seen unnecessary...even silly. That sounds like indoctrination, if you have to be virtually 'brainwashed' into "performances" as if that is all that God requires of you.

You confuse Judaism with Jewish people.

No, I don't think so. I know that an Israeli is a Jew by nationality, but that not all Israelis practice Judaism.

Who said that Judaism, as it was handed down by the Jewish religious leaders in times past, is founded on the original Jewish 'religion' that was given to Moses at Mt Sinai? Doesn't Israel's history of disobedience make you cautiously question how valid any of the modern day practicers really are? Or do you blindly accept them without question?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I'm one of those "few".....and the calculations have been done,
so you are correct.

Are you saying that it can be shown that there was a year when a Thursday would have been observed the same way a sabbath would be observed? This could cause serious changes in many people's beliefs. Could this information be published so others could learn about it?

 

[Shaul]

But doesn't it say in Exodus 24:3-4...
"So Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances, and all the people answered in unison and said, "All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do." גוַיָּבֹ֣א משֶׁ֗ה וַיְסַפֵּ֤ר לָעָם֙ אֵ֚ת כָּל־דִּבְרֵ֣י יְהֹוָ֔ה וְאֵ֖ת כָּל־הַמִּשְׁפָּטִ֑ים וַיַּ֨עַן כָּל־הָעָ֜ם ק֤וֹל אֶחָד֙ וַיֹּ֣אמְר֔וּ כָּל־הַדְּבָרִ֛ים אֲשֶׁר־דִּבֶּ֥ר יְהֹוָ֖ה נַֽעֲשֶֽׂה:

4And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and he arose early in the morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain and twelve monuments for the twelve tribes of Israel. דוַיִּכְתֹּ֣ב משֶׁ֗ה אֵ֚ת כָּל־דִּבְרֵ֣י יְהֹוָ֔ה וַיַּשְׁכֵּ֣ם בַּבֹּ֔קֶר וַיִּ֥בֶן מִזְבֵּ֖חַ תַּ֣חַת הָהָ֑ר וּשְׁתֵּ֤ים עֶשְׂרֵה֙ מַצֵּבָ֔ה לִשְׁנֵ֥ים עָשָׂ֖ר שִׁבְטֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵֽל:"

According to this scripture, God did not direct that certain commands not be written down but rather be passed on by word of mouth from generation to generation, thus being preserved only by oral tradition. All the words were written down....so there was no oral tradition from Moses. Doesn't that make the oral traditions from men?

By that reasoning none of the books that came after Moses are scripture. Is Isaiah not scripture?

You are insisting on an interpretation that isn’t valid.

 

[Harel13]

Sorry. Last question. I promise. Would ot make a difference if the first day of unleavened bread was on Saturday? Could it then be called either a "high day" or "high sabbath" or "high holy day"? I will not ask any more. This subject has been on my mind for a while and I just want to get as much info about it as I can. I really thank you for your time and patience with me.

It wouldn't be anything else other than a Passover on Shabbat. No other special title.

 

[Deeje]

By that reasoning none of the books that came after Moses are scripture. Is Isaiah not scripture?

I'm sorry...what? Isaiah did not write the Torah, nor was he a party to the oral traditions......we are talking about Sabbath laws and what was added to them by way of interpretation....what has that got to do with Isaiah? Please keep up with the conversation.....

You are insisting on an interpretation that isn’t valid.

Your comment is invalid.....

 

[Harel13]

I'm sorry...what? Isaiah did not write the Torah, nor was he a party to the oral traditions......we are talking about Sabbath laws and what was added to them by way of interpretation....what has that got to do with Isaiah? Please keep up with the conversation.....



Your comment is invalid.....

@Shaul is right Deeje. The verse you quoted simply says Moses wrote "all the words of God". Yet clearly he didn't. It doesn't say he wrote "all of the Torah/Five Books of Moses", just "all the words of God".

 

[Harel13]

I'm one of those "few".....and the calculations have been done,
so you are correct.

Off topic, but it'd be interesting to see such calculations. If you use, say, the Julian calendar, you'd have to line it up with the Hebrew calendar of the time to see when Passover came out. The problem is that the Hebrew calendar of the time didn't follow any pre-made calculations but required every month that witnesses who'd seen the new moon come to the court in Jerusalem. Once this was verified by the court, the new month was announced. Some time after the destruction of the Temple, the mathematical calendar was set up. I don't know if there's anywhere a complete calendar of all of the dates of all of the years from before the mathematical calendar. If you do have such a thing, it'd be cool to see.

 

[Harel13]

On reading through some of the restrictions and also the comments that follow The Shabbat Laws I cannot help but wonder how observing all those restrictions, when they are the "commands of men" and not from God, makes the Sabbath hard work all by itself?

They're not from men, they're from God. And no, once you're used to it, it's quite easy.
See @rosends's post: The Shabbat Thread

as if God would strike you down for pressing a button in an elevator

I'm pretty sure you know very well that that's not how God works. Have you ever done anything bad, or seen someone do something bad? Chances are, lightning didn't strike down. *Gasp!!!*

You can't carry anything but you can move it with your teeth or your elbow?

There are two terms in Jewish law called "L'chatchila" and "B'di'avad" - "to begin with" and "in retrospect" - to begin with, if you'd have been well prepared, you wouldn't have found yourself in a problematic situation. Being prepared is important. However, if you do, somehow, find yourself in a problematic situation, then there is something that can be done, but this isn't something you're supposed to do every time.

can you understand why?

No. I'm not too familiar with animalistic terminology.

Who is this God you worship? I cannot find him in the Bible.

Jesus

Who is this Jesus you keep mentioning? I cannot find him anywhere in the Tanach?
I see my God mentioned hundreds if not thousands of times in the Tanach.

Being enslaved to rituals accomplishes what? Will the 'performance' somehow make one righteous? Righteousness is not an act of law, but a condition of the heart, prompting a person to serve God out of love, not out of fear. Has God got nothing better to do than find fault?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. It's not really a reply to anything I wrote. You wondered at rabbis being legal minded. I explained that being legal-minded isn't bad. Then you question rituals?
How odd. Psalm 2:11 says one should worship God in fear: "Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling." Hmmm...
Psalm 19:10: "The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever; the ordinances of the LORD are true, they are righteous altogether" This is off-topic, but I wonder why Christians demand only love of god and not fear. It says right here that fear of God is forever...
Point is, clearly love is not enough. Now, why would we need fear? That's a whole 'nother issue.

If there is lightning on the Sabbath, is God violating his own law?

You assume two things: a. that God rests like we do. b. that every lightning strike, every move that nature makes is constantly, directly from God.

Jesus quoted these words to the Pharisees because that is exactly what they were doing.

A commandment of men, learned by rote, doesn't mean that men invented the commandment. It means that the men of the day received the commandments like robots, from their teachers and parents and acted upon them automatically. Perhaps that people of Jesus's time weren't quite so spiritual in their keeping of the law. The answer is not to erase the law but to keep it and add more spirituality. However, who knows? Perhaps Jesus really was a member of one the cults that thought there was no Oral Tradition.

 

[pearl]

There is no restriction on how far one can carry. It's determined by an area delimited by the eiruv, not the distance.

This was helpful in my understanding of an incident related to me, as follows.
An Orthodox woman's small child refused to or couldn't walk for what ever reason. She pushed her with her foot along the sidewalk until within the 'distance' to carry her and then picked her up. The eiruv is quite more complex.
What Is An Eruv? | My Jewish Learning

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

Are you saying that it can be shown that there was a year when a Thursday would have been observed the same way a sabbath would be observed? This could cause serious changes in many people's beliefs. Could this information be published so others could learn about it?

lol...sorry, I couldn't help but chuckle at that. This information has been published and by more than one person. Several years ago too.
It will not change anything. Whenever truth is revealed in this world, if it is something that upsets the status quo, it is immediately "buried"
somehow.

People don't want truth, they want to make what they "believe" to be true....true. So they live in their delusion all their lives.
Only real seekers of truth, accept truth when they find it. Herbert W. Armstrong wrote the most comprehensive analysis of
what you are inquiring of many years ago. Just google that name sometime and read all about it.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

lol...sorry, I couldn't help but chuckle at that. This information has been published and by more than one person. Several years ago too.
It will not change anything. Whenever truth is revealed in this world, if it is something that upsets the status quo, it is immediately "buried"
somehow.

People don't want truth, they want to make what they "believe" to be true....true. So they live in their delusion all their lives.
Only real seekers of truth, accept truth when they find it. Herbert W. Armstrong wrote the most comprehensive analysis of
what you are inquiring of many years ago. Just google that name sometime and read all about it.

I think I heard that name mentioned but did not do a lot of research on it. I will definately look further. You have been a bif help. Thanks.

 

[Deeje]

@Shaul is right Deeje. The verse you quoted simply says Moses wrote "all the words of God". Yet clearly he didn't. It doesn't say he wrote "all of the Torah/Five Books of Moses", just "all the words of God".

Whoa....what are you saying? Wasn't the point that the Torah needed additional explanation that was supposed to have been given to Moses as the oral tradition? Moses was told to write down all of God's Law. There is no mention of oral tradition for the simple reason that there was no need. God's laws were specific enough for intelligent people to understand what "NO WORK" meant. Where does Isaiah even come into that question? The prophets were sent by God to correct his errant people and they recorded their mission and the people's response to God's correction.....how did they respond, and how did they treat the prophets? I will let your own scripture tell you that sad story. Are you looking for excuses?

This is about Sabbath Laws.....can we stick to the script please....? The oral traditions that we are addressing in this thread are about the Sabbath.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Off topic, but it'd be interesting to see such calculations. If you use, say, the Julian calendar, you'd have to line it up with the Hebrew calendar of the time to see when Passover came out. The problem is that the Hebrew calendar of the time didn't follow any pre-made calculations but required every month that witnesses who'd seen the new moon come to the court in Jerusalem. Once this was verified by the court, the new month was announced. Some time after the destruction of the Temple, the mathematical calendar was set up. I don't know if there's anywhere a complete calendar of all of the dates of all of the years from before the mathematical calendar. If you do have such a thing, it'd be cool to see.

Don't you think that modern computers which can do thousands of calculation per second could count back and create a calendar for any year? Surely, the rules for how many days in a year and how many months should not have changed even if a formal calendar did not exist. Very interesting topic.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

lol...sorry, I couldn't help but chuckle at that. This information has been published and by more than one person. Several years ago too.
It will not change anything. Whenever truth is revealed in this world, if it is something that upsets the status quo, it is immediately "buried"
somehow.

People don't want truth, they want to make what they "believe" to be true....true. So they live in their delusion all their lives.
Only real seekers of truth, accept truth when they find it. Herbert W. Armstrong wrote the most comprehensive analysis of
what you are inquiring of many years ago. Just google that name sometime and read all about it.

I see that Harel13 mentioned Mr Armstrong in another thread in the Jewish DIR. He seems to say that the Jewish calendar did not formally exist until three or four hundred years later. On a different note, I have seen the the church Mr Armstrong founded was taken over by his son who later got in some trouble and the church broke up into pieces. This does not sound like something that would happen if God was really behind the idea. In my opinion, of course, and I could be wrong.

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

I see that Harel13 mentioned Mr Armstrong in another thread in the Jewish DIR. He seems to say that the Jewish calendar did not formally exist until three or four hundred years later. On a different note, I have seen the the church Mr Armstrong founded was taken over by his son who later got in some trouble and the church broke up into pieces. This does not sound like something that would happen if God was really behind the idea. In my opinion, of course, and I could be wrong.

Yes, this church had issues like all the rest. I was just referencing the work Mr. Armstrong did at the beginning.
Truth is like a huge puzzle with many, many pieces...….and they only fit together one way.
The pieces are everywhere.

 

[Deeje]

They're not from men, they're from God. And no, once you're used to it, it's quite easy.
See @rosends's post: The Shabbat Thread

Yes, I have read the replies of the Jewish posters here because I want to hear it straight from the horse's mouth, so that I do not misunderstand your beliefs and how you came by all the extensions added to them. That is why I mentioned "indoctrination" because no one in their right mind could practice the oral traditions of modern Judaism without cringing at the more ridiculous aspects of it. It appears as though you have to be taught to ignore common sense. (which I believe is all God wanted his people to employ in the first place.)

I'm pretty sure you know very well that that's not how God works. Have you ever done anything bad, or seen someone do something bad? Chances are, lightning didn't strike down. *Gasp!!!*

LOL...that is why we have a conscience. Our actions are not only judged by God but by our own interpretation of right and wrong. If your perceptions of right and wrong are distorted, (by being taught wrong perceptions) then our conscience will not guide us....we become enslaved to what others perceive as correct, not necessarily what God says is correct.

There are two terms in Jewish law called "L'chatchila" and "B'di'avad" - "to begin with" and "in retrospect" - to begin with, if you'd have been well prepared, you wouldn't have found yourself in a problematic situation. Being prepared is important. However, if you do, somehow, find yourself in a problematic situation, then there is something that can be done, but this isn't something you're supposed to do every time.

There is being prepared according to God's word....and there is being brainwashed into believing things that are simply not true. If the rules are not in scripture, then there is no reason to follow them. As Isaiah said...that is following the commands of men as if it was from scripture.....Jewish tradition goes way beyond anything that is commanded in scripture.

No. I'm not too familiar with animalistic terminology.

I think we get the picture......"straining at gnats whilst gulping down camels" is such a good description of what Jesus observed in the religious leaders of his day. Dotting all the "i's" and crossing all the "t's" is good, but creating way more dialogue with the necessity to dot more "i's" and cross more "t's" than what was in the original manuscript, creates a whole new 'movie.'

Who is this Jesus you keep mentioning? I cannot find him anywhere in the Tanach?

Isaiah 7:.....
"Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel. ידלָ֠כֵן יִתֵּ֨ן אֲדֹנָ֥י ה֛וּא לָכֶ֖ם א֑וֹת הִנֵּ֣ה הָֽעַלְמָ֗ה הָרָה֙ וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥את שְׁמ֖וֹ עִמָּ֥נוּ אֵֽל: "

...... he is "Immanuel". (Matthew 1:22-23)

Isaiah 9:6-7
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace." הכִּי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמ֑וֹ וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמ֜וֹ פֶּ֠לֶא יוֹעֵץ֙ אֵ֣ל גִּבּ֔וֹר אֲבִי־עַ֖ד שַׂר־שָׁלֽוֹם:
6To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this. ולְמַרְבֵּ֨ה (כתיב לְםַרְבֵּ֨ה) הַמִּשְׂרָ֜ה וּלְשָׁל֣וֹם אֵֽין־קֵ֗ץ עַל־כִּסֵּ֚א דָוִד֙ וְעַל־מַמְלַכְתּ֔וֹ לְהָכִ֚ין אֹתָהּ֙ וּֽלְסַֽעֲדָ֔הּ בְּמִשְׁפָּ֖ט וּבִצְדָקָ֑ה מֵֽעַתָּה֙ וְעַד־עוֹלָ֔ם קִנְאַ֛ת יְהֹוָ֥ה צְבָא֖וֹת תַּֽעֲשֶׂה־זֹּֽאת:"

You mean they didn't give you the memo?

 

[Deeje]

I see my God mentioned hundreds if not thousands of times in the Tanach.

Funny, I see him mentioned too but not by his name. I see the divine name there in the Hebrew, but it is missing from the English translation....can you tell me why?

Psalm 83, last verse...
"Let them know that You-Your name alone is the Lord, Most High over all the earth. יטוְיֵֽדְע֗וּ כִּי־אַתָּ֬ה שִׁמְךָ֣ יְהֹוָ֣ה לְבַדֶּ֑ךָ עֶ֜לְי֗וֹן עַל־כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ:"

Since when has Yahweh's name been "The Lord"? Can you give me a scriptural directive for NOT uttering the divine name?
In view of Exodus 3:13-15, can you tell me why the Jews failed to honor God's name down to today?

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:


14God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"

Since this was to be the name of God forever, why did the Jews lose it? How long is forever?

 

[Deeje]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. It's not really a reply to anything I wrote. You wondered at rabbis being legal minded. I explained that being legal-minded isn't bad. Then you question rituals?

As I see it, being strictly legally minded involved creating rituals around equally created traditions....most of these tradition had nothing to do with any of God's stated laws.

How odd. Psalm 2:11 says one should worship God in fear: "Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling." Hmmm...
Psalm 19:10: "The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever; the ordinances of the LORD are true, they are righteous altogether" This is off-topic, but I wonder why Christians demand only love of god and not fear. It says right here that fear of God is forever...
Point is, clearly love is not enough. Now, why would we need fear? That's a whole 'nother issue.

I see just fear....where there is fear, there can be no real love. The fear of displeasing God has nothing to do with morbid fear. I see in the strictness of the application of these rules...that going to the nth degree so as not to overstep by even a fraction of an inch.....to be prompted by the wrong kind of fear. That is not the kind of fear we should ever have of a loving parent surely?

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts fear out, because fear restrains us. Indeed, the one who is fearful has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love, because he first loved us.

20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And we have this commandment from him, that whoever loves God must also love his brother." (1 John 4:18-21)

Just out of curiosity, if a Jew joins the military and his nation goes to war and there are Jews on the opposing side, will a Jew feel a certain betrayal because he may have killed his brother over a political issue? How far does your fear of displeasing God actually go?

You assume two things: a. that God rests like we do. b. that every lightning strike, every move that nature makes is constantly, directly from God.

No it doesn't. In scripture, we see that God's laws are so perfect, that he abides by them himself. When he provided manna for his people in the wilderness, he made sure that they had two days supply so that there was no gathering of it on the Sabbath.
He not only made the law but provided the means for his people to obey it. Though he punished them for their disobedience by 40 years of wandering in the wilderness, he provided food and water and clothing and foot wear that never needed replacing. If he did that for his people in the midst of punishment, what is that telling us about his loving kindness? Do we need to fear him for the slightest thing that "might" go against his law.

A commandment of men, learned by rote, doesn't mean that men invented the commandment. It means that the men of the day received the commandments like robots, from their teachers and parents and acted upon them automatically.

And perhaps that is part of the problem. Doesn't the Creator of all of us have the ability to read our hearts? Does he want us to be "robots"....unthinking....unreasoning, ritualistic 'performers'? Or does he require us to think for ourselves and evaluate his laws and commandments so as to see the spirit behind those laws and obey them from our heart? Why do you need all those 'additions' in order to please God?

Perhaps that people of Jesus's time weren't quite so spiritual in their keeping of the law. The answer is not to erase the law but to keep it and add more spirituality. However, who knows? Perhaps Jesus really was a member of one the cults that thought there was no Oral Tradition.

Or perhaps Jesus was exactly who he claimed to be but the Jewish leaders of his day were more occupied with their traditions than actually listening to him? Didn't they just emulate their forefathers in ignoring the prophets that God sent to correct them? (Matthew ch 23) Were they acting out of character?
They were serial covenant breakers and yet so many never question the old ways and the new interpretations of the old ways....they just slavishly accept that they must do these things because they are told they must. But again I have to ask...who said?

The new covenant was not going to be like the old one......so what if that was the one Jesus instituted and you guys are standing behind a wall of denial? Maybe God is waiting for you to come to your senses and see that common sense was all He required in the keeping of his commands......how many hoops do you really need to jump through to please such a loving Father?

 

[Harel13]

I see that Harel13 mentioned Mr Armstrong in another thread in the Jewish DIR

Didn't want to drag things out on this thread.