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The Seven Seals Revealed

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Bennettresearch, Sep 5, 2005.

  1. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    The Seven Seals Revealed

    OK ladies and gentlemen, hold on to your seats. We are about to embark into the dark recesses of the Book of Revelation by John of Patmos circa 95 CE. This is a rich topic for debate. In presenting an interpretation of this prophecy, I am humbly submitting what I have come to know about this book through years of study. The following is a short list of the what each Seal represents. One can’t come in and post a book’s worth of information in a debate forum, so I have forgone commentary. Even though I have reached this point on my own, the idea of the Seals representing the Church is not a new one, as I have discovered. Even Matthew Henry, whose commentaries often overreach by equating everything with Jesus, has said that the Seven Seals represent the decline of the Church from its inception. (See Matthew Henry’s Commentaries on the Seven Seals.)

    Biblical quotes are from the New American Standard Bible published by Lockman Press 1977. The Seven Seals are not entirely chronological because a Prophet cannot write a script on the future of mankind. The page won’t allow me to include an entire quote of each Seal because it is too long so I will only include the first entry of each of the Seals..

    The First Seal; Constantine

    And I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come."

    The Second Seal; The Crusades

    And when He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come." And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from earth, and that men should slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.

    The Third Seal; Economic Control of the Church

    And when He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come." And I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.

    Special Note; The Oil refers to the Liturgy of the Church and the Wine is the economic and political advantages of those under the control of the Church.

    The Fourth Seal; Charlemagne/The Conquistadors of the New World

    And when He broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying "Come."

    And I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name of Death; and Hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to Kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

    The Fifth Seal; The Inquisitions

    And when he broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

    and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

    The Sixth Seal; The Judgement for taking on the Mark of the Beast

    And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;

    The Seventh Seal; The Judgement of the Catholic Church as an ally of Hitler in WWII

    And when He broke the seventh seal, there was a silence in heaven for about a half an hour.

    And I saw the seven angels who stand before God; and the seven trumpets were given to them.

    And another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

    And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him.

    And he opened the bottomless pit; and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.

    And out of the smoke came forth locusts upon the earth; and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

    I have not explained my position at this point because it will require a reference to Chapter 13 in Revelation. Chapter 13 is everyone’s favorite and there are widely disparate commentaries that are too numerous to count. I am looking forward to your reactions and comments even though they might overwhelm me.

    bennettresearch

     
  2. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    I take it you believe that Catholics beliefs are false?
     
  3. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Hi Mr Emu;

    This is a common problem when discussing a biblical prophecy. The interpretation of this prophecy is based upon searching out what the author was saying and not equating it to my own belief system. I myself only express my beliefs when I respond to threads. Many would argue that no one is capable of being objective, but I disagree. It is a matter of training. This thread is an objective examination of the Book of Revelation and not a personal attack on Catholics. John of Patmos, whom we don't have a definitive answer to who he was, penned a prophectic book on the matters of his era and prophesied the future from that point. THerefore, what else could the subject be and why do poeple insist upon a secular interpretation? As I stated at another time, the Bible is not politically correct and some things written in the Bible are not pretty.
     
  4. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Me wondering whether or not you are a Catholic is a commone problem? :p I just supposed because out of seven seals, six have to do with the Catholic Church that you weren't...

    Could you explain what you mean by a "secular" intepretation, thank you...

    Completely agree with you...

    One last thing, as you have previously pointed out in the opening post, you have not given your reasoning behind your interpretation, I would be appreciative if you could do so, as I currently disagree with you, well not so much as disagree as find no reason to agree...
     
  5. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Mr Emu, fellow searcher

    THe interpretation of the Seven Seals is brought about by the study of the prophecy as a whole and searching out the reasons for it and its main subject. To discuss the secular approach; a great many interpreters have spent too much time discussing natural disasters as signs of the Apocalypse. The myth surrounding the Antichrist is continually driven into the future, disregarding past events that would be the prediction of the future from the first century. I can understand to a great degree if one has been taught that the Roman Catholic Church represents the righteous representative of Christ, that they wouldn't want to accept John as writing a scathing critique of the Bishops of Rome and others who were claiming authority over Chritianity.
    Maybe John of Patmos was only a bitter outcast, and maybe he was a true prophet receiving the word of Jesus through revelation.
    There was not enough space in the original post to include commentary. I was also trying to open up a discussion and see what other's viewpoints were. Or people's reactions to this interpretation of what the Seals represent.
    I will stand steadfast on the conclusion that the subject of Revelation is about the Church and it predicts future events based upon the knowledge of human behavior. I am however, ready to read other knowledgable opinions and listen to reactions.
    I would throw the ball back in your court and ask you to state why you doubt that the Seven Seals represents the Church.

    Thankyou Mr. Emu
     
  6. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Bennet,

    It is not that I doubt it persay, but that I find no reason to ascribe the seals to the Roman Catholic Church... You say the being on the white horse with crown and sword who conquers(the first seal) represents Constantine, why not Genghis Khan, the most prolific conqueror in the history of the world? Or Alexander the Great, who was also a mighty conqeuror?

    That is just one, there are many possibilities(including future events) for every prophecy within the Book of Revelations, and you have given me no reason to believe that any, much less all seven, refer to the Roman Catholic Church...
     
  7. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Hi Mr Emu,

    We only know that John of Patmos was an exile per se and lived supposedly in a cave on the Island of Patmos. Scholars date his prophecy around 95 CE. Much had developed since the crucifixion around 33 CE. Paul had made his way through the empire and there were Gospels in different parts of the empire. It is apparent that the Bishops of Rome had also set about claiming apostilic succession and were beginning to assert an authority over the growing Christian Churches.
    It is evident in reading Revelation that John of Patmos was objecting to the events of his time and that he states that this was a revelation of Jesus, having Jesus give commentary towards the seven churches. So far there is no direct statement against Rome or the Bishops of Rome. This is veiled in metaphor and we can understand why this was necessary. Martin Luther made the connection of Babylon and Rome and the reference to those gaining power from the dragon. (Revelation 13:2) In reading the rest, one can wander off of this point and not see the relevance of the rest of the chapter.
    Therefore, in digging into it over a period of years the metophoric content became evident as it was referring to the state of the Christian Church at the time. Jesus and John aren't happy. This is where the Seven Seals make sense in that they are prophesying the coming of the central church, which is historically the Roman Catholic Church.
    I am not alone. Even though I find much of what Matthew Henry says in his commentaries as being overreaching, he makes a very interesting statement about the Seals.

    "On opening the third seal, a black horse appeared; a colour denoting mourning and woe, darkness and ignorance. He that sat on it had a yoke in his hand. Attempts were made to put a yoke of superstitious observances on the disciples. As the stream of Christianity flowed further from its pure fountain, it became more and more corrupt. During the progress of this black horse, the necessaries of life should be at excessive prices, and the more costly things should not be hurt. According to prophetic language, these articles signified that food of religious knowledge, by which the souls of men are sustained unto everlasting life; such we are invited to buy, #Isa 55:1|. But when the dark clouds of ignorance and superstition, denoted by the black horse, spread over the Christian world, the knowledge and practice of true religion became scarce."

    (Matthew Henry's Commentary on Revelation (6:1-8) )


    And so, instead of a continual projection of the Seals into the future and a supernatural interpretation of these events, a great deal seems to have happened already. I will make one concession here, this is still a work in progress and can be subject to amendment. However, I have not found anything yet that would indicate to me that I am on the wrong track. I am not Catholic bashing here, but I cannot ignore what has been written in this prophecy because it might offend someone else's faith. I think this is why the prophecy has defied proper interpretation because the Roman Catholic Church is such a powerful force.

    Thankyou for your interest and please do offer your viewpoints. I have only been here a few days and have found your comments in other forums to be very interesting.
     
  8. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    bigger print so i can read it please.

    fonts are way to small
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    The seals do not represent church history because there is no instance of Jesus opening them in church history:

    1 ¶ And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, Come.
     
  10. stlekee

    stlekee Fool for Wisdom

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    Bennetresearch,
    please show evidence that the Catholic church was an ally of Nazi Germany. Vatican City, which is an independent state, was officially nuetral during WWII.
     
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