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The Righteousness of God

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I have a huge issue I have with the Buddhist type theory of multiple lifetimes invariably leading to a person achieving perfection. I reject the notion because the assumption that the more time people are given the better they will get is one that has no basis in reality. From reality we can see that given more time some people get better and make better choices while others get worse and make worse choices. So as romantic as it sounds to say that if everyone simply got more time they would eventually reach perfection this is plainly not true.

So the question is, what is a loving God to do about those who clearly will never reach perfection no matter how many lives or chances they are given? Should he force them to continue living multiple lives for eternity? Or should he make a call (a judgement if you will) and give them a position within his kingdom that will suit their abilities?

I would choose the latter.



It would be a mistake to think that the laws of God are not ultimately physical. In the end I believe God's ultimate goal is to bring order and allow all creatures in the universe a chance at happiness according to their measure. As for man he desires that we may assist Him in his work. Therefore all the commandments he gives us are calculated to allow us to learn the skills and develop the abilities to do this. Thus there is nothing theoretical or mystical about the commandments of God. They are as physical and practical as the laws of physics.

You must have missed the point on multiple lifetimes. There is more knowledge to be learned that could ever be learned in one mere lifetime. God's goal is to educate. By returning our actions, one discovers what our actions really mean. Example: What would a murderer learn if the one they loved most were murdered? They would see other sides of their actions. People can choose many hard lessons for themselves.

It's not only bad choices that return. Our good actions return as well. This, in time will teach us all to love unconditionally. After all, that is what everyone really wants coming to them.

If you look around you, God is very smart just to be able to create this place. Is God really unable to fix the kiddies? Hardly. God uses interaction of people. There are many wonderful souls who volunteer to go through great adversity in order that someone else will SEE. This world is a Masterpiece. The dynamics of the interaction are amazing.


Finally, wanting to condemn others, to see others inferior, to control or judge others as evil is a form of hate. See people for who they really are Children of God learning all the secrets of the universe through their free choices. See a soul learning hard lessons, then point them in the right direction whether they see or not. At some point, they will.

Lastly, you speak of rules and laws other than the physical laws of the universe. People claim their holy book has God's laws. If that were really true, God would make sure everyone had a copy of those laws. God has not or ever will do that. God wants that free choice not that intimidated choice. It is the only real path to a higher level. One must not be made to behave. One must choose to behave. This comes only when one understands. Yes, some do have to repeat lessons. On the other hand, even the thickest skull person learns given enough time and there is an eternity of that. We are living our lessons.

You speak of Happiness. Happiness is within everyone's reach when you understand it. Need a clue?? Happiness is no more than a CHOICE!!! I will always be Happy!! How about you?
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
You must have missed the point on multiple lifetimes.

I did not miss it. I addressed it in the very first paragraph of my reply. Here it is again:

"I have a huge issue I have with the Buddhist type theory of multiple lifetimes invariably leading to a person achieving perfection. I reject the notion because the assumption that the more time people are given the better they will get is one that has no basis in reality. From reality we can see that given more time some people get better and make better choices while others get worse and make worse choices. So as romantic as it sounds to say that if everyone simply got more time they would eventually reach perfection this is plainly not true."

Again I emphasise: the problem with the theory of multiple lives is that there isn't sufficient respect for free will. There is an assumption that everyone will eventually think the right way if you pump them with enough lessons through multiple lifetimes. This theory does not hold up to the clearly apparent fact that some will people choose darkness over light no matter how often the light is offered to them.

Furthermore the theory of multiple lifetimes does not make sense unless a murderer in a previous lifetime is born a murderer in the next. That is, if a person became an accomplished murderer in his first life, then in his second he should have a head start on the path of being a murderer. This then destroys the theory of the innocence of children: clearly some children are born guilty of murder. And not only are they born guilty they are also born predisposed to it as well. And being predisposed their chances of a wholesome life as less than they were in their previous life. And if he does not succeed in changing his ways in his second life, his chances in his third will be even less. Thus the law of diminishing returns will mean that that individual's chances of making drastic changes in his life will diminish and eventually disappear.

Thus there will have to be a point where the lessons must come to an end and a final mark given. This is not a doctrine of hate, any more than a teacher failing a student is a sign the teacher hates the student. Perhaps not everyone wants to become like God. Perhaps not everyone wants to become the Great Servant of the universe God is. Perhaps some people prefer living for themselves and doing what they believe benefits them only rather than worrying about the wider society. And who are we to judge them? Who is God even to judge them? Surely once they've chosen the kind of life they want to live, after being given ample time to choose, they should get what is their due.

Lastly, you speak of rules and laws other than the physical laws of the universe. People claim their holy book has God's laws. If that were really true, God would make sure everyone had a copy of those laws. God has not or ever will do that. God wants that free choice not that intimidated choice. It is the only real path to a higher level. One must not be made to behave. One must choose to behave. This comes only when one understands. Yes, some do have to repeat lessons. On the other hand, even the thickest skull person learns given enough time and there is an eternity of that. We are living our lessons.

You seem to be deliberately missing what I have been saying. Again I will quote what I have said previously:

"It would be a mistake to think that the laws of God are not ultimately physical. In the end I believe God's ultimate goal is to bring order and allow all creatures in the universe a chance at happiness according to their measure. As for man he desires that we may assist Him in his work. Therefore all the commandments he gives us are calculated to allow us to learn the skills and develop the abilities to do this. Thus there is nothing theoretical or mystical about the commandments of God. They are as physical and practical as the laws of physics."

The lesson you say we are living are teaching us principles aren't they? Would you care to list me some of these lessons you believe God wants us to learn?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I have a huge issue I have with the Buddhist type theory of multiple lifetimes invariably leading to a person achieving perfection. I reject the notion because the assumption that the more time people are given the better they will get is one that has no basis in reality. From reality we can see that given more time some people get better and make better choices while others get worse and make worse choices. So as romantic as it sounds to say that if everyone simply got more time they would eventually reach perfection this is plainly not true.

I very much agree... except that to the best of my knowledge that is not at all a Buddhist model or teaching.

It is however very much that of Kardecist Spiritism. One of many serious mistakes of that movement.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I very much agree... except that to the best of my knowledge that is not at all a Buddhist model or teaching.

It is however very much that of Kardecist Spiritism. One of many serious mistakes of that movement.

What is the buddhist theory regarding salvation (as you understand it)? Does everyone eventually make it or does it allow for people who choose never to reach nirvana?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What is the buddhist theory regarding salvation (as you understand it)? Does everyone eventually make it or does it allow for people who choose never to reach nirvana?
People die, and personal identities die quite easily and often.

The closest to salvation that I understand to fit in my conception of Buddhism is the network of mutual support and personal sincere effort to guide ourselves out of our mental poisons.

Whether everyone makes it is in some senses a trick question, because making it may well mean no longer being the person that one used to be.

I don't think people can truly choose not to reach nirvana, either. Nirvana is an achievement. Part of its concept is that those who understand it will reach it.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
People die, and personal identities die quite easily and often.

The closest to salvation that I understand to fit in my conception of Buddhism is the network of mutual support and personal sincere effort to guide ourselves out of our mental poisons.

Whether everyone makes it is in some senses a trick question, because making it may well mean no longer being the person that one used to be.

I don't think people can truly choose not to reach nirvana, either. Nirvana is an achievement. Part of its concept is that those who understand it will reach it.

What of those who refuse understand it. That is, what of those who refuse to walk the path that will lead to their ultimate enlightenment. Is this question addressed in buddhism or is there an explicit or implicit assumption that everyone eventually will?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What of those who refuse understand it. That is, what of those who refuse to walk the path that will lead to their ultimate enlightenment. Is this question addressed in buddhism or is there an explicit or implicit assumption that everyone eventually will?
That is IMO a fairly deep question.

I don't think it is possible to find a meaningful answer to it unless one understands how ephemeral the sense of self is.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
That is IMO a fairly deep question.

I don't think it is possible to find a meaningful answer to it unless one understands how ephemeral the sense of self is.

It is both a deep and an important question. The christian God is viewed by many outside the faith as evil for, among other reasons, the fact that he denies some people access to heaven on account their not meeting certain standards.

Among those who hold such a view there are not a few who turn to religions such which offer (as they see it) a more lenient view of God. One of the first things some people enjoy about such religions is the vagueness. By that I mean while a religion like Christianity specifies both the qualities and behavourial patterns a person should have in order to reach salvation, these types of religions speak mostly of the qualities the person must finally have without specifying the actions that will indicate a person actually has such qualities. This often allows people to claim they are righteous without having to show any tangible evidence of their claimed righteousness. This also allows people to live lives of convenience.

Another selling point about such religions is the silence about what happens to those who never comply with the principles of salvation. By not talking about it the religion comes across to some as a being more loving and humane.
But other religions actually assert that everyone will eventually be saved regardless of what anyone does in this life. In the Book of Mormon a man with a new (but false - according to the book) religion says the following:
And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.
Perhaps I am brainwashed but the diversity of people and their choices indicates to me that there will ultimately be a diversity of destinies for all. And my belief is that there are people whose choices are so bad that their destiny will be to live a life that cannot be described as anything other than a hell. For that is really what heaven and hell mean. It isn't so much a place as it is a state of being.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
There is a problem faced by every theory of God as someone who created the entire universe out of nothing and who is the source of all laws and principles of nature and existence.

Generally if you're going to call someone good or righteous it is because there is a particular standard of behavior (which transcends them) to which they adhere. A citizen who obeys the laws of His country is often called a "good citizen". A soldier who obeys instructions from commanding officers and discharges His duty in a manner expected of a dedicated soldier is called a "good soldier".

Good point, and one of the many excellent reasons to believe in a deist, non-interactive God. God, if It exists, makes no moral decisions, or reveals any moral code. The basis for all morality is found in our self-awareness which can only be shown to have evolved naturally. God, if It exists, may have intended such an evolution, but we can't even show the first bit of evidence for or against God. Until we can, we're on our own.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I did not miss it. I addressed it in the very first paragraph of my reply. Here it is again:

"I have a huge issue I have with the Buddhist type theory of multiple lifetimes invariably leading to a person achieving perfection. I reject the notion because the assumption that the more time people are given the better they will get is one that has no basis in reality. From reality we can see that given more time some people get better and make better choices while others get worse and make worse choices. So as romantic as it sounds to say that if everyone simply got more time they would eventually reach perfection this is plainly not true."

Again I emphasise: the problem with the theory of multiple lives is that there isn't sufficient respect for free will. There is an assumption that everyone will eventually think the right way if you pump them with enough lessons through multiple lifetimes. This theory does not hold up to the clearly apparent fact that some will people choose darkness over light no matter how often the light is offered to them.

Furthermore the theory of multiple lifetimes does not make sense unless a murderer in a previous lifetime is born a murderer in the next. That is, if a person became an accomplished murderer in his first life, then in his second he should have a head start on the path of being a murderer. This then destroys the theory of the innocence of children: clearly some children are born guilty of murder. And not only are they born guilty they are also born predisposed to it as well. And being predisposed their chances of a wholesome life as less than they were in their previous life. And if he does not succeed in changing his ways in his second life, his chances in his third will be even less. Thus the law of diminishing returns will mean that that individual's chances of making drastic changes in his life will diminish and eventually disappear.

Thus there will have to be a point where the lessons must come to an end and a final mark given. This is not a doctrine of hate, any more than a teacher failing a student is a sign the teacher hates the student. Perhaps not everyone wants to become like God. Perhaps not everyone wants to become the Great Servant of the universe God is. Perhaps some people prefer living for themselves and doing what they believe benefits them only rather than worrying about the wider society. And who are we to judge them? Who is God even to judge them? Surely once they've chosen the kind of life they want to live, after being given ample time to choose, they should get what is their due.



You seem to be deliberately missing what I have been saying. Again I will quote what I have said previously:

"It would be a mistake to think that the laws of God are not ultimately physical. In the end I believe God's ultimate goal is to bring order and allow all creatures in the universe a chance at happiness according to their measure. As for man he desires that we may assist Him in his work. Therefore all the commandments he gives us are calculated to allow us to learn the skills and develop the abilities to do this. Thus there is nothing theoretical or mystical about the commandments of God. They are as physical and practical as the laws of physics."

The lesson you say we are living are teaching us principles aren't they? Would you care to list me some of these lessons you believe God wants us to learn?

God is teaching us Math. If you have a choice to make and can experience every side, intelligence will make the best choice.

Life isn't about just having a good time. Life is the education of God's children. We will learn it all and experience it all through our free choices.

Yes, everyone already knows God. On the other hand, that experience is not fully remembered in our physical life because it would change things. We would become dependent expecting God to fix it all rather than stand on our own two feet.

Yes, when one experiences God's Unconditional Love, one wants to be just like God. Look at the youngest people. They have just left God's arms. How loving and kind are they? It takes time to start making choices and change.

Human nature wants peace, quiet, and everything going our way. Perhaps we are all spoiled to a certain extent. Adversity, drama, and conflict, the things people avoid are really the fix. How much learning takes place through adversity, drama, and conflict? When times are good, we just sit back and enjoy the ride. When adversity hits, we have to think,study, analyze, investigate then discover so very much. What would life really be like without the challenges that allow us to learn and grow?

When one has been through enough lifetimes, who needs rules? Example: Are there things or choices that you know are wrong and could never choose to do? Sure. You must remember that in a multilevel classroom there has to be students who have not learned some of the things you have. Education through interaction. Don't condemn. Teach.

You made the comment that some people never change, however life is about change. Change comes slowly to some. If you point someone in the right direction whether they listen or not, it makes a difference. In time, I have discovered they do change only they think it was their idea all along. Move a grain of sand every time you see them. Given enough time you can move a mountain. You might not be the one to see the change but it will happen.

It seems when it comes to God people focus on feelings. Let's not forget God's great intellect. If one has a great enough intellect, it all comes down to Math. Think about that.
 
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