The Riddle of Epicurus

[opensoul7]

The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
[/SIZE][/FONT]

God is able to intervene , so God is omnipotent
God is able and willing ,so that is why God is.
whence cometh evil , from humans ,free will and the ability to choose.
What would be the purpose of life and death if you knew everything ? what would there be to experience,or learn ?
The single answer to the riddle is Free will . God gave us free will to decide for ourselves .It is humans and their actions that are malevolent , because of the ability to choose . God does not wish harm on us , as a good parent does not wish harm on their child . But even as a parent at some point you have to let your child be their own person , decide for themselves.You just hope you have guided them in the right direction and taught them to make good decisions .
ma·lev·o·lent

(mə-lěv'ə-lənt) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Having or exhibiting ill will; wishing harm to others; malicious.
2. Having an evil or harmful influence.

free will
–noun 1.free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will. 2.Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces

 

[darkpenguin]

I'd have to disagree. I watched a special on the Discovery Channel Sunday called Predators at War, and it showed footage of a lion who had just feasted on a carcass kill a hyena pup who had a broken back and couldn't flee for no reason other than to kill it. He mauled the carcass, and wouldn't leave it until it turned cold to make sure it was dead.

Theres really no evil in that Jensa! It's just a lion doing what a lion does! It's either kill or be killed!

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Theres really no evil in that Jensa! It's just a lion doing what a lion does! It's either kill or be killed!

Lions and Hyenas are natural enemies in the sense that they are both apex or near apex predators, largely going after the same or similar means of sustenance. Lions as a group are better off when there are fewer hyenas around, as there is less competition for foodstuffs, and water. Therefore it makes perfect sense that the lion would not want a hyena pup to grow to adulthood.

Male lions who take over a pride will also kill all the newborn offspring of his predecessor as well. This is to ensure that the females come quickly into heat and that the next generation of lion cubs belong to him, and not his rival who was dethroned. It sucks if you are one of the cubs involved, but it makes perfect sense from the new male lion's perspective. He just fought a major battle to lead the pride, and his reward is that his stronger genetics make it into the next generation. No sense in him raising his rival's cubs.

And to Jay's original Riddle of Epicurus, I think that the inevitable answers posed by the riddle itself explain very eloquently why I, personally, originally came to the conclusion I have about the "Hairy Thunderer" from the Deteriorata.

B.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

The question makes two presumptions, neither of which are necessarily true: it presumes God is a being (as opposed to Being-Itself), and it presumes God is omnificent (the personal doer of all things). The "riddle," then, doesn't pose as much of a problem as it reveals ignorance on the part of Epicurus and atheists who pose it.

 

[Papersock]

But it is a bit of a problem for people who do believe that god is a being and is omnificent, like many Western Christians who think they have the correct view of god.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

But it is a bit of a problem for people who do believe that god is a being and is omnificent, like many Western Christians who think they have the correct view of god.

You are correct, a BIG problem. But if free will is to real rather than an illusion, God must be self-limited, and if self-limited, the problem vanishes.

 

[Super Universe]

But there is no evil in the universe. There is only good choice, and bad choice.

 

[Kcnorwood]

This sad little riddle comes to those of us with faith as the cry of a confused child. "Why me? Boo hoo.... What a world, what a world!"..... poor dear. As Christians, reading something like this fills our hearts with pity and sadness. So many in this world (and through every age) come to a thought like this at some point in their life and cry out into the night in confusion. Those of us who have, by God's grace, come to know the love of God read this "riddle" and snicker..... but the challenge for us is to feel sorrow for our brothers and sisters who are so deviod of faith that these "questions" have meaning to them.

A "malevolent" God? The poor simpleton.... where did he get the notion that God was good rather than evil? What is evil? An evil, indifferent, or absent God is still a God.... not the point Deut 32.8 was going for, I'm sure. Epicurus does not seem to doubt the existance of God as a higher power, but, like primitive man who thought lightning was the wrath of some unseen "god", Epicurus lacks the grace of understanding.... the grace of faith..... and so, like a spoiled child, he lashes out at God and questions His goodness and power. In reality, these are not questionss that relate to God's omnipotence or goodness, but of His love for us as children. Epicurus, and those who read and relate to this riddle, want to be loved by God.... want a simple world, something easily explainable.... devoid of evil, sickness and death.... these poor souls want HEAVEN! ... but don't know how to obtain it with their own understanding and power. A person like this will use riddles, logic, reason, knowledge, sarcasm, anger... whatever they can and use every ounce of their desire to "force" God out of existance (to no avail, of course).... as if by doing so.... THEY become gods.... they become masters of their own rudderless ships.... comforted in their aimless journey by the notion "At least I am at the helm!"

Every man should eventually come to ask about the "ultimate inexpressible mystery which encompasses our existance: whence do we come, and where are we going?" (Nostra Aetate Pope Paul VI) Those of us who live in this age tackle this question with more refined concepts than a riddle, but the journey is still just as difficult, the questions just as valid.

Those of us with faith have come to accept the mystery... have come to accept that ther is no sure answer to questions such as these. "I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution," (Saint Augustine, Conf.). The humility of a Christian is that after knowing this, we make the decision (with divine assistance) to have faith in the absence of certainty.... to believe in an unseen and sometimes seemingly uncaring God. Some people (I won't mention any names) need 100% proof... but I'm not sure that a burning bush, a Barbara Walters interview, and a face to face meeting would sway them. So be it. My faith gives me the comfort to know that people such as these are in the hands of a merciful judge.

What it boils down to... in my not-so-humble opinon, is that we are all on our own "ship" (to borrow from my ealier analogy) and as we sail through life the atheist often laughs as we sit on deck and let an unseen God "steer" our ship... "Ignorant fools! There is no god! Get up and take the helm!", the atheist cries... then shakes his head in disgust as one of "God's ships" slams into the rocks and sends the passenger to their death.... "See, I told you!".............. but, the atheist then notices that he is aiming for the same rocks, and attempts in vain to "steer" his rudderless ship... to no avail.... "At least I was in charge!" he cries as the ship crashes and sends him to his death....

And so it goes..... none of us will get out of this life alive... and the journey tied together with those we love along the way is what defines our humanity.......

......... not the compilation of enough data to satisfy ourselves that there are no more mysteries yet left to solve.

To Epicurus, and those who think as he does, my sincere affection and the prayer that on your search for knowledge..... you find love.



Peace,

Scott

First of all I don't see your god as being loving I mean come have you read the bible?
God is telling his people to kill babies rape women Etc.
There is nothing gracful about what you believe, please just TRY to justify what you God does. Whats merceiful about sending someone you love to hell? Stop trying to justify God & living in the reality of it.

 

[Kcnorwood]

God did not break a sweat..


Then why did God rest?

 

[Super Universe]

First of all I don't see your god as being loving I mean come have you read the bible?
God is telling his people to kill babies rape women Etc.
There is nothing gracful about what you believe, please just TRY to justify what you God does. Whats merceiful about sending someone you love to hell? Stop trying to justify God & living in the reality of it.

God did not tell anyone to kill anything. Actually one of God's laws is Thou Shalt Not Kill. Just because a man writes something down and says it is from God does not make it so.

 

[Kcnorwood]

God did not tell anyone to kill anything. Actually one of God's laws is Thou Shalt Not Kill. Just because a man writes something down and says it is from God does not make it so.

Don't you believe that the bible was written by man & under the influence of God?

If you do then yes God DID tell man to do those things.

 

[Super Universe]

I absolutely believe the bible was written by man. Man who did not know what caused lightning so he blamed it on God. Man did not understand meteors, "Firey rocks from the sky?" he questioned, then blamed the fireballs that destroyed Soddom on God. What else could it be?

A man (ancient priests) also put in the bible that God wishes that we pay a ransom and sacrifice the best of our flock so this man could have money and fresh food delivered to his (temple) door.

A man wrote that God tempts, tortures, hardens men's hearts, and the worst blasphemy of all, that God kills those who do not obey Him. This is the most blasphemous thing you could say. God does none of these things and never has.

This bible you talk about does not represent the Creator of the universe. It does not bear His signature.

You could write your own bible and purposely make up many false things yet still attribute it all to revelation from God. He will not stop you because He gave us all free will and there is truly nothing you can say or do to harm Him. If people wish to believe your bible and create a religion around it then it is within their right to do so.

 

[Kcnorwood]

So then you believe that some of the bible might be false?

Where's your proof that God has never done these things? If it is in the bible then isn't supposed to be true?

Or do you not believe in the bible yourself?

 

[Super Universe]

The people back then did not understand the earth as we do today. They looked to their priests to explain things they did not understand but the priests didn't know either. So they made it up and in doing so they gave themselves more power.

What do you think people today would say to a priest who said that God sent hurricane Katrina to punish the sinners there? People love to feel good about themselves but only those with jealousy and anger in their hearts would believe such a thing. It actually makes them feel good to believe that God punishes others.

But the flock is quickly leaving the old outdated beliefs and setting out in search of it's own way apart from the priests. And it is a very good thing.

Where is my proof that God has never done terrible things? It is my purpose, one that I'd forgotten until a trusted friend reminded me and I awoke and remembered.

If you do not wish to believe that God could do no harm then that is your choice. People believe what they wish to believe and never stop to ask "Why do I want to believe this?"

There is truth to be found in the bible. I can see revelation in the ideas but they are so incredibly misunderstood by humans who have such a closed selfish view of everything. You worry too much about the bad things, as if they are all that matters.

You want to know why God doesn't do something to make you happy? Because it's not about you. Look out at the night sky, see the universe around you. Where does it say that it's all there just to make you rich?

 

[Kcnorwood]

Correct me if I am wrong but are then 10 commandments in the Nt?

If so it was in the OT that God did those things so that law had not come to pass yet.

You also said there is no evil, so then you also do not believe in Satan? Sounds like your picking & chooseing here.

There is some beauty to be found in all religions at some point. But with some many christians saying that God is love & then reading the bible, it's hard to see sometimes.

 

[Super Universe]

Correct me if I am wrong but are then 10 commandments in the Nt?

If so it was in the OT that God did those things so that law had not come to pass yet.

You also said there is no evil, so then you also do not believe in Satan? Sounds like your picking & chooseing here.

There is some beauty to be found in all religions at some point. But with some many christians saying that God is love & then reading the bible, it's hard to see sometimes.

The ten commandments are not in the New Testament. Any person who needs to be told that killing is wrong should continue to ponder the ten commandments, maybe write it five hundred times on a chalk board.

Christ did not reaffirm the ten commandments because there is only one rule, do no harm. If you need this rule chizeled into stone then you are living in 1,500 BC. Adopt this new rule because you have found within yourself that it is what is right, not because I told it to you.

Am I picking and choosing? Absolutely. I am not here to copy your life. Should I not be myself? So many others do not think for themselves about God. They look to the priests for guidance but the priests do not know God, they only know their human religion.

Religion does not represent God. The true Creator would not recognize Himself in this book humans have written. I am here to defend Him against unjust representation.

Satan exists but I do not give him the power that others do. He has no power over me or anyone. He is nothing but an excuse for those who do not wish to take responsibility for their own actions.

There certainly is beauty to be found in all religions but you do not have to join a group, get a membership card, and pay dues to access it.

The light is free. There is no price you can put on colors. The trees and birds are priceless.

 

[Kcnorwood]

I was taught that the bible has a whole is the word of God from start to finish.
& if you didn't believe every word of it then you were not a christian.
To some extent to me that makes sence. SO let me ask you something (i'm not trying to be rude) but where do you get your Inspiration from? The 10 commandments did not come along untill the NT hence the new Covenant between God and man.

I'm not sure how you can say that they are not part of the NT but if that is your belief then ok, but bibically it is in the bible.

 

[Super Universe]

Were you also taught that if you were good then Santa Claus would bring you lots of presents? Were you taught about the tooth fairy or that a stork brings babies?

Parents are responsible for what they teach their children but as a child grows they take on more and more responsibility for their own beliefs. At some point you need to be you and not what someone told you to be because only you are responsible.

At your judgement if you plead "But the bible says..." the reply will be "But why did you choose to believe it?" Really there is a need inside each of us that is filled by our core beliefs. Some are angry at their life situation so they refuse to believe in God. Others need to feel good about themselves so they think that believing puts them in a higher status.

Once you identify your needs then you can decide whether you actually like this part of yourself and begin to change those that you don't.

Being a Christian means following Christ's teachings of which the most important are that His Father exists and that you should forgive others. The reason they (the church) require you to believe every word of the bible is because it keeps you on their level. If you stay on one level of (religious/God) belief for your entire life then you really missed the bus.

Where do I get my inspiration from? Colors - believe me, you haven't seen them all. Sequoia's. Children playing. Mood music (I love movie soundtracks). Poetry. Sports. Gardens. Water. Cats. Dogs. Birds. Indigo children. Sidewalk cafe's in Europe. A rocky creek. Majestic mountains. The ocean...

Is there anything in any religion that compares to these?

 

[Rolling_Stone]

But there is no evil in the universe. There is only good choice, and bad choice.

What we call "evil" is an act or thought that has no basis in reality. That does not mean there are no consequences. The only reason evil appears to be a problem for theists is that it is generally assumed God is a being among other beings rather than their Ultimate Ground and Source. Between our finite and extremely localized personalities and the Infinite One, there's plenty of room for a vast hierarchy of beings having their respective role in the creative process. There is plenty of room for evil and even sin, the former being error and the latter being deliberate.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

I was taught that the bible has a whole is the word of God from start to finish.
& if you didn't believe every word of it then you were not a christian.
To some extent to me that makes sence. SO let me ask you something (i'm not trying to be rude) but where do you get your Inspiration from? The 10 commandments did not come along untill the NT hence the new Covenant between God and man.

I'm not sure how you can say that they are not part of the NT but if that is your belief then ok, but bibically it is in the bible.

Sir you are incredibly mistaken there. Moses brought down the 10 commandments from a mountain, found his people worshipping a golden calf, and became so distraught he broke the tablets. This is all in the OLD TESTAMENT, it led to the MOSAIC LAW which was what all JEWS had to follow, as there were, by definition no CHRISTIANS until after the time of JESUS CHRIST, who was not a contemporary of Moses.

The new covenant refers to the time of Jesus, as opposed to the existing covenant, which had been since the time of Abraham, further codified by the 10 commandments in the time of Moses. Get your fairy tales correct, then by all means, continue with your debate.

B.