The Riddle of Epicurus

[Jayhawker Soule]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?


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[size=-1]( And when he is the author of incomparable evil and misery? [Deut. 32.8] )[/size]
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[SoulTYPE]

Deut, I believe that he is willing. And able to prevent evil to a certain degree and extent. However, he cannot prevent ALL evil, so because he is able to prevent SOME, he is still able to prevent evil.

 

[Valjean]

So the first proposition obtains -- He is not omnipotent.

 

[SoulTYPE]

Exactly Seyorni, so it all makes sense!

I think this is why Deut posted it. For discussion.

 

[Valjean]

No-one beats Deut for thought-provoking posts.

Yesterday I spent several hours in Massimo Pigliucci's website after clicking on one of Deut's links.

 

[michel]

Surely, to those who believe in a deity that created all that there is, he would have been unlikely to create something he would be unable to control?

Therefore he ought to be omnipotent

 

[SoulTYPE]

But He did., MICH.

 

[michel]

Well Soul, if he did, it means he used a power that could not have been available to him at the time of creating Satan ?

How can he have created something better than himself?

 

[SoulTYPE]

I did not say Satan was better than God Mich..

 

[michel]

I did not say Satan was better than God Mich..

I didn't say that; I said you were proposing that Satan could have more power than God; 'better than' in a judgemental measure; 'strength' is one of Pure energy

 

[SoulTYPE]

I didn't say that;

I know you weren't. I was implying that I didn't either.

I said you were proposing that Satan could have more power than God

I wasn't proposing that at all,lol.

Don't make me get the LK in here lol.

 

[Fluffy]

God is not omnipotent. He is still controlled by certain elements of the reality we live in. For instance, although the Bible does not state this, it makes plenty of sense to accept that he cannot do something which goes against the laws of logic (like create a triangle with 4 sides for example) since this helps to explain some of the actions which he takes, especially in the OT.

 

[michel]

WTF you going on about, this is a debate (at least I think this is what Deut intended) not a battle. I don't need LK in here lol. And if you were going to comment on my joke, why quote the whole post? Jokes seem pointless here, so I won't make them. I am going to go back on topic. I suggest you do the same.

Agreed; you still haven't satisfactorilly answered how any Deity could have got himself in the position of having created something/one more powerful than himself!

Logic rukes O.K!:jiggy:

 

[SoulTYPE]

Agreed; you still haven't satisfactorilly answered how any Deity could have got himself in the position of having created something/one more powerful than himself!

Logic rukes O.K!:jiggy:

But we are talking about God here.

 

[SoulTYPE]

So your question need not apply.

 

[Green Gaia]

Back on topic, fellas.

 

[michel]

God is not omnipotent. He is still controlled by certain elements of the reality we live in. For instance, although the Bible does not state this, it makes plenty of sense to accept that he cannot do something which goes against the laws of logic (like create a triangle with 4 sides for example) since this helps to explain some of the actions which he takes, especially in the OT.

But surely, the logic of which you talk is that same logic that God himself created; he need not be in a position of of doing something against his own logic; he could have designed logic to dictate that a triangle has 4 sides. Where do you go to next?

 

[Fluffy]

Therefore he ought to be omnipotent

How can he have created something better than himself?

This is contradictory michel. Logic only rules when it doesnt contain holes. Omnipotence implies the ability to do anything. Therefore you must forget all things which you consider to be impossible since this implies that EVERYTHING is possible for a being who is omnipotent.

 

[SoulTYPE]

Back on topic, fellas.

Maybe you will listen to her instead of me. I suggested that.

So, on my first reply to this thread, I can see where the logic in the Epicure is valid. It is a very ingenious riddle and thank Deut 32 for posting it for it has given us sme good discussion..

 

[michel]

This is contradictory michel. Logic only rules when it doesnt contain holes. Omnipotence implies the ability to do anything. Therefore you must forget all things which you consider to be impossible since this implies that EVERYTHING is possible for a being who is omnipotent.

I'm sorry, I promise I'm not rying to be awkward, but how do you relate your answer with the definition of omnipotence?- If I'm missing the point, tell me.
Omnipotence (literally, "all power") is the power to do absolutely anything. This trait is usually attributed only to God. Theists hold that examples of God's omnipotence include Creation and miracles