don't hide the absence of proper arguments for Universalism behind Greek expressions that noone can understand. That was my point.
It is a lame trick to suddenly start hurling in Greek expressions when you're running out of arguments, I think.
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The Restitution Of All Things
- Thread starter FineLinen
- Start date
It is a lame trick to suddenly start hurling in Greek expressions when you're running out of arguments, I think.
Thomas: there is no need for "lame tricks" in our Father's wonderful expressions of His intention to restore the radical all of pas and ta panta/ all & the all back to Himself.
That Restoration reaches as far as the curse is found into every life, every dimension of Heaven, Earth & underworld !
"Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, that in the name of Jesus every knee shall bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.…"
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Noone can understand this.
But everyone should have the oportunity to undertstand what this discussion is about.
In my opinion, your post might conjure up the impression that the ones knowing Greek have an advantage here over the ones who don't.
But this isn't the case, I think.
The situation is so simple:
There is a group in sin. This is the "all", Romans 5:18.
There is another group that is saved, this is the "many", Romans 5:19.
Universalitsts desperately need to establish the "all" = the "many".
Without this equation their doctrine won't work.
However, there is no indication in the text that all=many. If the author would have wanted to equate these two groups he could have done so by using the same exact Greek word for both groups. He didn't.
You know that, I think.
And now you opt to throw in some Greek so the others might think "oh, that's a deep discussion, apparently. But since I don't know any Greek, I can't judge what's going on".
Of course they can. It's simple.
You're simply muddying the water, I think.
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BTW my point wasn't that God's restoration doesn't reach far. My point was that after that restoration... sinners could go on sinning. And victims need some sort of separation from their earthly perpetrators, in my opinion.
Thomas: Sin pervades into the all off us. It is known as utter depravity. That depravity is something one is born with as members of Adam1.
St. Paul declares this as prisoners of disobedience that our Father takes full responsibility for.
All of us are "made subject to futility, not willingly, but by reason of Him who so subjected it.."
And why would the Father of all fathers do such a preposterous thing? Why Thomas, why?
"Creation, you see was subjected to pointless futility, not of its own choice/volition but because of the One who placed it in this subjection, in the hope....
that creation itself shall be freed from its slavery."
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Thomas: Any restoration by the God of glory and awesome power reaches to the lowest hell.
Lets review what restoration means in koine shall we?
Restoration = apokatastasis =
Back again from kathistemi to set in order.
The balancing of accounts.
Repair (regeneration).
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in the hope!
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there will be a restoration... however, as I said in #83... this does not mean that after that restoration sinners will suddenly stop sinning again.
Edited to add last paragraph
Thomas: Do you actually believe the One who placed mankind in futility will not finish why He did such a thing?
"The whole of created life SHALL BE DELIVERED/ set free."
it says "in the hope that... The whole of created life SHALL BE DELIVERED/ set free." Romans 8:20,21.
Jesus will finish his invitations. Yes he will. But this does not mean that the invited people will show up! Matthew 22:8.
Thomas: The One who is sending out invitations has used a powerful word in koine. That word is thelo.
Thelo = draw/ drag off in power/ impel.
"If I be lifted up, I will draw, drag off in power, impel all mankind unto Me."
that could very well be the invitation. An invitation draws.
For instance if someone invites me to his birthday party... I feel drawn to go there. Always. That's the dragging of an invitation. I know that.
But still, this doesn't mean that everyone will show up, see Matthew 22:8 .
Thomas: every last broken and bruised sinner will show up for our Father's consummation! He will be all in all by way of at-one-ment.
"If I be lifted up, I will draw, drag off in power, impel all mankind unto Me."
Again Matthew 22:8 says that not everyone will show up.
If you repeat... rest assured I will stay with my opinion.
Even if I don't answer.
Thomas: I rest assured you will indeed stay with your opinions until they implode before Him.
Central to the whole plan of God is Jesus Christ and His greater glory, but even more amazing is the realization that God has planned for us to share His glory and to work out for us our good as well.
God has a perfect plan.
This plan needs no human support!
The Escorial
In Madrid, Spain, there exists the Escorial, one of the greatest cathedrals ever built by man. For centuries the kings of Spain have been buried there.
When that magnificent structure was under construction, the architect designed a vast arch, perhaps bigger than anything that had been built before. That arch was so flat at the top that the reigning king was frightened by the prospect of the tremendous weight of the roof collapsing on his head. He commanded the architect to build a column from the floor all the way to the center of that arch to hold it up.
The architect protested vehemently that it was not needed, but the king insisted and, over the laments of the architect, the column was built.
The king worshipped contentedly in the vast structure, having seen to it himself that the ceiling would not fall.
The years went by, the church stood, and the king finally died. Only then did the architect reveal that between the top of the column and the bottom of the arch there was a quarter of an inch of space.
In all these hundreds of years that have passed the arch has not sunk so much as a quarter of an inch.
Today a board is still passed over the column and under the arch for all to see.
So it is with the plan of God - that over-arching plan that encompasses all of reality and all of life. It needs no human support to hold it up. God is the Lord of all and He is working out His purposes in our lives, in all of the world, and through the whole universe.
Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World
God has a perfect plan.
This plan needs no human support!
The Escorial
In Madrid, Spain, there exists the Escorial, one of the greatest cathedrals ever built by man. For centuries the kings of Spain have been buried there.
When that magnificent structure was under construction, the architect designed a vast arch, perhaps bigger than anything that had been built before. That arch was so flat at the top that the reigning king was frightened by the prospect of the tremendous weight of the roof collapsing on his head. He commanded the architect to build a column from the floor all the way to the center of that arch to hold it up.
The architect protested vehemently that it was not needed, but the king insisted and, over the laments of the architect, the column was built.
The king worshipped contentedly in the vast structure, having seen to it himself that the ceiling would not fall.
The years went by, the church stood, and the king finally died. Only then did the architect reveal that between the top of the column and the bottom of the arch there was a quarter of an inch of space.
In all these hundreds of years that have passed the arch has not sunk so much as a quarter of an inch.
Today a board is still passed over the column and under the arch for all to see.
So it is with the plan of God - that over-arching plan that encompasses all of reality and all of life. It needs no human support to hold it up. God is the Lord of all and He is working out His purposes in our lives, in all of the world, and through the whole universe.
Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World
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I think I did say the truth. Please leave your empty claims.Thomas: I rest assured you will indeed stay with your opinions until they implode before Him.
BTW judgement is Jesus's business, so I don't understand why you mess with that to begin with.
Thomas: We think this and we think that. Much of our thinking ends with us, where it began. Expansion into our Heavenly Lord starts with Him in stages of glory leading to new avenues of growth.
The entire process is rooted in the Author & Perfecter of faith, the Lord of Rectification!
"The highest glory of the creature is in being only a vessel, to receive and enjoy and show forth the glory of God. It can do this only as it is willing to be nothing in itself, that God may be all. Water always fills first the lowest places. The lower, the emptier a man lies before God, the speedier and the fuller will be the inflow of the divine glory." -Andrew Murray-
Disciple of Jesus = "You did not choose Me, I chose you."
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I don't think that my thinking in this regard will end with me, since my stance was rooted in scripture, I think.
Thomas: The Lord Jesus Christ declares that in the Scriptures we think we have eternal life, but they are they which testify of Me.
BUT
"You will not come to Me..."
The Road, (the Royal road), begins in His grasp of our wee lives into His by way of at-one-ment.
I wish you well on His royal Road.
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“The love that brought forth the existence of all things, changes not through the fall of its creatures, but is continually at work, to bring back all fallen nature and creature to their first state of goodness. … God’s providence, from the fall to the restitution of all things, is doing the same thing, as when He said to the dark chaos of fallen nature, ‘Let there be light’; He still says, and will continue saying the same thing, till there is no evil of darkness left in all that is nature and creature. God creating, God illuminating, God sanctifying, God threatening and punishing, God forgiving and redeeming, is but one and the same essential, immutable, never ceasing working of the divine nature.” -William Law-
Who is William Law?
https://www.goodreads.com/author/lis....William_Lawl
Who is William Law?
https://www.goodreads.com/author/lis....William_Lawl
The Judgment of God =
krisis =
Denotes separation, followed by judgment & decision.
Condemnation.
krima= the result of the action of judgment signified by verb krino (to judge).
Condemnation.
John Gavazzoni
For the average person, the thought of facing the judgment of God is not a pleasant one. Even with those who, by their own estimation, expect to be greeted with glowing commendation by the One who has the final say as to the worth of our works, beneath their fascade of self-righteousness, lies an insecurity that drives their attempts at self-assurance: create said fascade so it, in effect, will speak back to them, "see all the good things you have amassed; they prove you're a good person whose goodness will be recognized by God." It's the constant pressure of keeping such insecurity suppressed that made the Pharisees of old, and makes the contemporary versions, so really miserable and unattractive.
The Judgment of God
krisis =
Denotes separation, followed by judgment & decision.
Condemnation.
krima= the result of the action of judgment signified by verb krino (to judge).
Condemnation.
John Gavazzoni
For the average person, the thought of facing the judgment of God is not a pleasant one. Even with those who, by their own estimation, expect to be greeted with glowing commendation by the One who has the final say as to the worth of our works, beneath their fascade of self-righteousness, lies an insecurity that drives their attempts at self-assurance: create said fascade so it, in effect, will speak back to them, "see all the good things you have amassed; they prove you're a good person whose goodness will be recognized by God." It's the constant pressure of keeping such insecurity suppressed that made the Pharisees of old, and makes the contemporary versions, so really miserable and unattractive.
The Judgment of God