truthseeker123
Member
man you are so childish .....do you want some toys pumpkin
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The quran clearly states that a husband can beat his wife (4:34) can any muslim explain why and just
- Thread starter truthseeker123
- Start date
truthseeker123
Member
please dont bomb me
To: truthseeker123,
CC: *Anne*, MissAlice,
Hi truthseeker123,
Sorry that I did not revisited this thread yesterday as I thought that it were not serious.
It's important that you determine What Islam are you talking about. In Shia Islam We don't accept al-Bukhari or any Sunni Book of Hadith, since they were written almost a century after the death of the prophet. You could read this if you want to know some of the reasons for our stance on this:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...6123-muhammads-enemies-scientific-errors.html
Regarding the verse you mentioned after my reply, which is Surah 4:43. Sunnis (in general) have a very different view toward it than what the Shia imams teach. The verse is saying that if you [approach/touch] women you need to do a major ablution before performing prayer.
Shia say that the verse is talking about sexual intercourse, after which both partners need to perform the ablution, while the sunnis generally interpret it as normal touching. [keep in mind that there are many sunni schools of thought].
And why ablution before prayer this is another issue.
As for verse 4:34
In Shia Islam, the prophet and his successors are the references for the interpretation of the Quran.
You can't take a word or a sentence out of its context and away from the different related verses and traditions and say that this is how women are treated in Quran.
You need to look at the verse through the lens of the Islamic rules and values that govern Muslims actions.
These rules and values have emphasised particularly on women rights:
In Al-Kafi (one of the main Shia sources), it's stated that when death approached Imam Alil peace be upon him, he mentioned the following in his will:
Fear Allah in relation to the women and slaves, since the last thing your prophet has spoken was saying: I advise you concerning the [two weak(s)] women and slaves [to treat them well].
Note that the prophet was not approving having weaker sectors in the society, but was rather describing a situation in that society.
To understand what this prioritization means, one must consider how the Quran is expecting Muslims to behave in general. A Muslim is not only hold to account for his actions, but even for every single word he speaks:
" He [man] uttereth no word but there is with him an observer ready. "
Quran: سورة 50 - آية 18
Based on this, shia Ayatollahs have taken very strong stance regarding violence against women. I have talked about this particular point before. For example here is Ayatollah Fadlullah exact statement:
"If men practice physical violence against women, and the latter have no means to defend themselves except through exchanging violence. This would be permissible as an act of self-defence. "
Sayyed Fadlullah: The women have the right to defend themselves against Men's violence.
This understanding of the mentioned verse is compatible with the Quranic view of the Islamic family, as described in the following verses:
"And of His signs is that He created for you, of yourselves, spouses, that you may cohabit with them; and He has set between you love and mercy. Surely in that are signs for a people who consider."
Quran: 30-21
"It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them... "
Quran: سورة 2 - آية 187
CC: *Anne*, MissAlice,
Hi truthseeker123,
Sorry that I did not revisited this thread yesterday as I thought that it were not serious.
It's important that you determine What Islam are you talking about. In Shia Islam We don't accept al-Bukhari or any Sunni Book of Hadith, since they were written almost a century after the death of the prophet. You could read this if you want to know some of the reasons for our stance on this:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...6123-muhammads-enemies-scientific-errors.html
Regarding the verse you mentioned after my reply, which is Surah 4:43. Sunnis (in general) have a very different view toward it than what the Shia imams teach. The verse is saying that if you [approach/touch] women you need to do a major ablution before performing prayer.
Shia say that the verse is talking about sexual intercourse, after which both partners need to perform the ablution, while the sunnis generally interpret it as normal touching. [keep in mind that there are many sunni schools of thought].
And why ablution before prayer this is another issue.
As for verse 4:34
In Shia Islam, the prophet and his successors are the references for the interpretation of the Quran.
You can't take a word or a sentence out of its context and away from the different related verses and traditions and say that this is how women are treated in Quran.
You need to look at the verse through the lens of the Islamic rules and values that govern Muslims actions.
These rules and values have emphasised particularly on women rights:
In Al-Kafi (one of the main Shia sources), it's stated that when death approached Imam Alil peace be upon him, he mentioned the following in his will:
Fear Allah in relation to the women and slaves, since the last thing your prophet has spoken was saying: I advise you concerning the [two weak(s)] women and slaves [to treat them well].
Note that the prophet was not approving having weaker sectors in the society, but was rather describing a situation in that society.
To understand what this prioritization means, one must consider how the Quran is expecting Muslims to behave in general. A Muslim is not only hold to account for his actions, but even for every single word he speaks:
" He [man] uttereth no word but there is with him an observer ready. "
Quran: سورة 50 - آية 18
Based on this, shia Ayatollahs have taken very strong stance regarding violence against women. I have talked about this particular point before. For example here is Ayatollah Fadlullah exact statement:
"If men practice physical violence against women, and the latter have no means to defend themselves except through exchanging violence. This would be permissible as an act of self-defence. "
Sayyed Fadlullah: The women have the right to defend themselves against Men's violence.
This understanding of the mentioned verse is compatible with the Quranic view of the Islamic family, as described in the following verses:
"And of His signs is that He created for you, of yourselves, spouses, that you may cohabit with them; and He has set between you love and mercy. Surely in that are signs for a people who consider."
Quran: 30-21
"It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them... "
Quran: سورة 2 - آية 187
I read one story about Muhammad who, when asked, "What shall we beat them with? " thought for a moment and then replied smiling, "With this!" and he held up the equivalent of a toothbrush. I got the impression that the author was trying to say Muhammad never meant beat the daylights out of your wife, and that he (Muhammad) felt the "beating" should be something as harmless as a tap with a toothbrush.
I don't know if that's true.I also don't know if men back then were pretty accustomed to throwing their women around in anger. It's possible Muhammad's instruction was a huge improvement for women.
Symbolic or not, it's not an option with me. If my husband so much as flicked my arm in an attempt to discipline me, he'd end up with a much bigger problem.
True.
People at that time used to bury their infant daughters alive. They also were beating the crap out of their wives, so Islam came to prevent this act but in a step by step manner, because later in one of the saying of Prophet Mohammed, he said in surprise, how would a man beat his wife, then he go and sleep with her? Prophet Mohammed never laid a finger at any woman in his life time, and he wanted for the Muslims to be like him.
MissAlice
Well-Known Member
To: truthseeker123,
CC: *Anne*, MissAlice, …
Hi truthseeker123,
Sorry that I did not revisited this thread yesterday as I thought that it were not serious.
It's important that you determine What Islam are you talking about. In Shia Islam We don't accept al-Bukhari or any Sunni Book of Hadith, since they were written almost a century after the death of the prophet. You could read this if you want to know some of the reasons for our stance on this:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...6123-muhammads-enemies-scientific-errors.html
Regarding the verse you mentioned after my reply, which is Surah 4:43. Sunnis (in general) have a very different view toward it than what the Shia imams teach. The verse is saying that if you [approach/touch] women you need to do a major ablution before performing prayer.
Shia say that the verse is talking about sexual intercourse, after which both partners need to perform the ablution, while the sunnis generally interpret it as normal touching. [keep in mind that there are many sunni schools of thought].
And why ablution before prayer this is another issue.
As for verse 4:34
In Shia Islam, the prophet and his successors are the references for the interpretation of the Quran.
You can't take a word or a sentence out of its context and away from the different related verses and traditions and say that this is how women are treated in Quran.
You need to look at the verse through the lens of the Islamic rules and values that govern Muslims actions.
These rules and values have emphasised particularly on women rights:
In Al-Kafi (one of the main Shia sources), it's stated that when death approached Imam Alil peace be upon him, he mentioned the following in his will:
Fear Allah in relation to the women and slaves, since the last thing your prophet has spoken was saying: I advise you concerning the [two weak(s)] women and slaves [to treat them well].
Note that the prophet was not approving having weaker sectors in the society, but was rather describing a situation in that society.
To understand what this prioritization means, one must consider how the Quran is expecting Muslims to behave in general. A Muslim is not only hold to account for his actions, but even for every single word he speaks:
" He [man] uttereth no word but there is with him an observer ready. "
Quran: سورة 50 - آية 18
Based on this, shia Ayatollahs have taken very strong stance regarding violence against women. I have talked about this particular point before. For example here is Ayatollah Fadlullah exact statement:
"If men practice physical violence against women, and the latter have no means to defend themselves except through exchanging violence. This would be permissible as an act of self-defence. "
Sayyed Fadlullah: The women have the right to defend themselves against Men's violence.
This understanding of the mentioned verse is compatible with the Quranic view of the Islamic family, as described in the following verses:
"And of His signs is that He created for you, of yourselves, spouses, that you may cohabit with them; and He has set between you love and mercy. Surely in that are signs for a people who consider."
Quran: 30-21
"It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them... "
Quran: سورة 2 - آية 187
So what you are saying, beating a wife or woman is generally frowned upon by Shi'a Islam?
BTW, thanks for the extra info regarding this topic. There doesn't seem to be too many regarding this repetitious issue.
Last edited:
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
I really don't think truthseeker is looking for any answers. Throughout the thread, he has acted with a complete lack of respect, cumulating in his disrespectful comments about please don't bomb me. That type of ignorance and bigotry can not be fought on an internet forum as the person does not want to look at the subject logically.
Answers have been provided. He refuses to accept them because his bigotry and hatred has blinded him.
The main problem here is that the Quran is written in Arabic. A translation does not do the original text justice as the languages do not easily translate back and forth. This is true for many ancient texts. The best way to study them, in order to understand what the meanings are, is to read them in their original language. This is also a reason that interpretation is needed.
It is easy to copy and paste hatred that one finds on the internet. All that it shows though is bigotry, and we have seen a perfect example here.
Answers have been provided. He refuses to accept them because his bigotry and hatred has blinded him.
The main problem here is that the Quran is written in Arabic. A translation does not do the original text justice as the languages do not easily translate back and forth. This is true for many ancient texts. The best way to study them, in order to understand what the meanings are, is to read them in their original language. This is also a reason that interpretation is needed.
It is easy to copy and paste hatred that one finds on the internet. All that it shows though is bigotry, and we have seen a perfect example here.
truthseeker123
Member
falling blood - senoiur member ohhh mky golly golly gosh i am really star struck senoir member my my you must have ALL the knowledge about life and relgion - senour member wowie you it the big time ......maybe you are allah ........cause you have all the answers thanks for your comment - sticks and stones little one - islam will be revealed for waht it is - nothing you can do about it - ok cupcake - run aong now its almost dinner time
Yes i'm afraid so. Multiple answers have been provided, only to be met by disrespect.
Precisely. It's complicated, and that's why there are many different translations.
truthseeker123
Member
no disrespect - its just so obvoius how blinded you are but hey - the main problem with Islam is you cant really disuse it with anyone as there are far to many interpretations - the reason for this is so its always a grey area and no one can argue a point , the problem is an interpretation is something seen through the eys off that particular person so they are always going to be different - it so easy so see the reason fior this is so islam can never be argued against - its wired cause the words are printed in black white to read but still you insisted no it does not mean what it says ......blatantly blind to your cause
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
And you went ahead and proved my point. Being a senior member means absolutely nothing. It simply means that I've posted here quite a bit. Doesn't give me more credibility. What gives me credibility is the respect that I show. You simply seem incapable of this, which isn't surprising as you get to hide behind a computer monitor.
Have you ever read the Quran? I mean from cover to cover? Have you ever studied it without just looking for the evils you think it includes? Have you ever had respectful conversations with a Muslim? I highly doubt it. From what it looks like is that you live in the west, and thus only know what some propaganda has told you.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
You are also blinded, but more so by your bigotry and hatred. You've been given answers to your questions, but instead of accepting them, you insult those who give them to you by calling them blind.
The fact is, interpretation is a must. Yes, the words may be printed, but the English does not convey what the original Arabic always means. This is part of studying ancient texts. Arabic does not translate nicely to English thus you can not get the same meaning. More so, taking certain verses out of context guarantees that one will not find the actual meaning, and only shows that one is trying to attack a religion.
To: truthseeker123,
CC: *Anne*, MissAlice, …
Hi truthseeker123,
Sorry that I did not revisited this thread yesterday as I thought that it were not serious.
I posted the above reply without reading the insulting replies of truthseeker123.
Although I would not have replied to his dirty words anyway, If I have read his words I would not have addressed him with "Hi truthseeker123"
In this world if one wants to stand up for his values and try to make even a tiny change, he will need to deal with all kind of humans (in the biological meaning of the term)!