The Qur'an and translations

[TashaN]

I also see Islam appealing to people of the same mindset. The "American Taliban" and some of the "black Muslim" communities here in America are examples.These are people who, feeling alienated in their own communities, find solace in another projecting the same feelings.

Disgusting racism.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Disgusting racism.

Told ya!

 

[tariqkhwaja]

You might disagree, but I believe there are three classes of revelation:

1. General revelation—the development values, arts and science through evolution.

1. 
   I disagree with that you were right. That is not Divine revelation because these values inspire the good and the evil.
   

   [*]Autorevelation—revelation originating from the spiritual core and welling up through the psyche.

   Again, you say the psyche self-produces everything. Yet this goes against the dictates of nature where we see that the Earth's treasures depend on the energy from the heavens. The sun, moon, rain, etc. without these the Earth would not sprout its treasures. Similarly, humans need outside sources and what they possess within them is not enough in material or spiritual existence.
   
   Furthermore, prophecies of miracles can not be made by our inner psyche. It would make no sense.
   

   [*]Special revelation—revelation from external influences, whether messengers from God or incarnations of the Divine.

I agree with that though I do not believe the Divine incarnates.

I don't want to offend anyone, though I'm sure I will, but this is the way I see it: The ethnocentric and xenophobic characteristics associated with Islam grew from Arab tribalism and hostilities, not Islam per se. Yet, I also see Islam appealing to people of the same mindset. The "American Taliban" and some of the "black Muslim" communities here in America are examples.These are people who, feeling alienated in their own communities, find solace in another projecting the same feelings.

But you see by stating this you deny the facts of history. The course of history is completely different to what you state.

So opposed was Islam to some core values and cultures of the then Arab world that it received very harsh treatment (physical torture) for no other reason. Rights of women, forgiveness, complete inhibition of sexual desires to the extent that those having 100 wives were now told to have no more than 4 (if they could be just to all four of them), charity, justice, kindness, and kinship to all human beings. The Arabs (forgive me for sounding racist) hated it.

And this is the case with all Prophets of God (moreso with Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) than any other). Look at the life of Jesus, of Moses, of Abraham whose father opposed him. So for you to say the Arabs were wanting a revolution and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) happened to be there is at opposite ends with what happened in history.

No matter how great the revelation, it cannot avoid being limited in its scope and human appeal--and nothing so limited can be perfect or complete.

I don't understand how the Divine Authority who reveals revelation does not have the ability to give someone revelation without it being limited in scope and human appeal. For you to say it CAN NOT happen is just limiting God's Power. You can say it WILL not happen but then you will have to justify why God would never want humans to have that perfect revelation.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

I disagree with that you were right. That is not Divine revelation because these values inspire the good and the evil.

It only make evil possible; it does not inspire it. Would you rather have us be robots?

Again, you say the psyche self-produces everything.

No, I do not.

Yet this goes against the dictates of nature where we see that the Earth's treasures depend on the energy from the heavens. The sun, moon, rain, etc. without these the Earth would not sprout its treasures. Similarly, humans need outside sources and what they possess within them is not enough in material or spiritual existence.

True, man does need outside sources, but man does not live by them alone.

Furthermore, prophecies of miracles can not be made by our inner psyche. It would make no sense.

You are inferring form something I did not say.

I agree with that though I do not believe the Divine incarnates.

Who are you to limit what Allah does or does not do?

But you see by stating this you deny the facts of history. The course of history is completely different to what you state.

So all the Arab tribes were united and peaceful when Mohamed was alive?

So opposed was Islam to some core values and cultures of the then Arab world that it received very harsh treatment (physical torture) for no other reason. Rights of women, forgiveness, complete inhibition of sexual desires to the extent that those having 100 wives were now told to have no more than 4 (if they could be just to all four of them), charity, justice, kindness, and kinship to all human beings. The Arabs (forgive me for sounding racist) hated it.

This is consistent with what I said. Indeed, it supports what I said as true. And just to let you know: kindness and kinship does not make non-believers second-class citizens.

And this is the case with all Prophets of God (moreso with Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) than any other). Look at the life of Jesus, of Moses, of Abraham whose father opposed him. So for you to say the Arabs were wanting a revolution and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) happened to be there is at opposite ends with what happened in history.

Again, you are inferring things from something I did not say.

I don't understand how the Divine Authority who reveals revelation does not have the ability to give someone revelation without it being limited in scope and human appeal. For you to say it CAN NOT happen is just limiting God's Power. You can say it WILL not happen but then you will have to justify why God would never want humans to have that perfect revelation.

You do not understand because you worship not Allah, but a book and his prophet. And with reason, I can prove it.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

It only make evil possible; it does not inspire it. Would you rather have us be robots?

I am not saying knowledge is good or bad. I am saying that ideas or inspirations that just come to mind can be both good and evil and can not be termed revelation as such. For example, if someone wishes to rob a bank and thinks about how to achieve the objective and comes up with a brilliant plan why would you call the plan Divinely Revealed? You can call it a result of natural procedure of thought (which God installed) but to call it extraordinary Divine Revelation from a God that teaches good makes no sense.

No, I do not. True, man does need outside sources, but man does not live by them alone.

My point being that on his own man can never attain goals. He is far more dependant ... far far more dependant on the processes involved over which he has no control than on the negligible things he does have control over. That is why the problem with Autorevelation as you define it is the same. It is like saying a tree can grow branches without rain.

You are inferring form something I did not say.

Sorry.

Who are you to limit what Allah does or does not do?

I am not limiting Allah. He can do whatever He pleases. I am just saying that one would not expect Him to turn into, for example, the devil incarnate (though I am sure He is capable of it). But this is a different debate. In principle I agree special revelation.

So all the Arab tribes were united and peaceful when Mohamed was alive?

Uh no. They squabbled like hell. They were united against Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). That is the point. So "against the general tide" were his teachings.

This is consistent with what I said. Indeed, it supports what I said as true. And just to let you know: kindness and kinship does not make non-believers second-class citizens.

Huh? Second-class? There are no second-classes in Islam. The only thing that makes you more or less of a person is your closeness to God. And no human can know who is closer to God unless God tells him/her.

Again, you are inferring things from something I did not say.

Again, sorry. But I think it is, in effect, what you are saying.

You do not understand because you worship not Allah, but a book and his prophet. And with reason, I can prove it.

Look maybe someday I will come to these forums and pretend to be an Atheist and logically conclude all these things. Then at least people won't say this. It is really frustrating at times. Believe me I am all open for rebuttals and refutations and accepting where I am wrong (honesty) is a very good policy. Maybe we are not clear enough in our language but please do not just do away with my rationality by saying I am biased. Be ... err ... optimistic about me. And be honest. Try to be clearer and I will try to be more understanding. Try to be more understanding and I will try to be clearer.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Look maybe someday I will come to these forums and pretend to be an Atheist and logically conclude all these things. Then at least people won't say this. It is really frustrating at times. Believe me I am all open for rebuttals and refutations and accepting where I am wrong (honesty) is a very good policy. Maybe we are not clear enough in our language but please do not just do away with my rationality by saying I am biased. Be ... err ... optimistic about me. And be honest. Try to be clearer and I will try to be more understanding. Try to be more understanding and I will try to be clearer.

So, who's an atheist? Is Allah greater than the world? Of course. Is the world greater than Islam? Yes. Is Islam the Koran? No. Is religion as it is within itself greater than Islam? Yes.

I suggest you listen to Seyyed Hossein Nasr, University Professor of Islamic Studies, talk about Universalism v. Particularism (go to the "God" tab). I'm not saying the Koran is "bad," on the contrary, it's magnificent. But it is also limited in its applicability, aimed at a specific culture in a specific age.