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Featured The Problem of Existence and Consciousness

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Jan 11, 2021.

  1. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Not at all. Evolution proceeds according to what works.
    The jellyfish design is immensely successful.

    If it ain't fix don't broke it. Or something.

    BTW-
    Imagine the horror of putting your mind into a jellyfish body. Total monotony while waiting for a sea turtle to eat you.
     
  2. Onoma

    Onoma Active Member

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    true, but evolution doesn't necessarily = increasing complexity

    Viruses and bacteria evolved from the same cellular source, yet viruses evolved to become simpler while bacteria became more complex, complete opposites of each other
     
  3. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    they don't have a typical nervous system. they don't have a centralized brain
     
  4. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    what is more amazing is the simpler forms of life can't really understand higher forms of life. so we as humans couldn't necessarily know if there are higher forms of life greater than us. because we don't have the means to test for them and we tend to work solely from a earthly experience. being conscious of self and lower forms is easily done. being conscious of higher forms isn't
     
  5. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    and higher life forms can manipulate those viruses and bacteria without them knowing who and how it was accomplished. evolution gets augmented with higher intelligence
     
  6. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    No "But" needed for me! Been trying for years to get creationists to understand that.
     
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  7. Onoma

    Onoma Active Member

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    Another relevant ( imo ) bit is that we are comparing a " centralized " brain ( humans ) to a " distributed " nervous system that functions like a brain ( jellies, octopi )

    The human enteric system is a good example of a distributed nervous system, and it's actually able to function autonomously without the centralized brain

    We consider an octopus to be able to " think ", yet it has no centralized brain, so we could attempt to say it's not " conscious " because it lacks a brain, yet somehow we say it " thinks "

    This makes me question how we define things, because now we are saying that " thinking " is an emergent property in something that evolved to have no centralized brain
     
  8. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    With an IQ of about 75. Not exactly 'normal', but definitely conscious, I would agree.

    I wouldn't see the cerebellum as particularly relevant for consciousness (as opposed to the cerebrum).

    I am very skeptical of this one. Can you find a link? With nothing above the brain stem, she would not have language functioning, planning, emotions, or any number of other characteristics necessary for normal functioning.

    Exactly how consciousness arises from brain activity is still unknown, of course. While damage to parts of the brain will lead to deficits, it does not seem to eliminate consciousness until the brain stem is suppressed. it also seems that each module in the brain contributes its own 'piece' of consciousness.
     
  9. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I'm not willing to say that octopi are not conscious, although I would say that they would have a very different *type* of consciousness than humans.
     
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  10. Onoma

    Onoma Active Member

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    I'll look for it. Iirc, it was a unique case where a woman ended up having multiple surgeries and even after having most of her brain removed, still functioned normally ( Not enough to work, drive a car, etc, but enough to talk, converse ). This was attributed to plasticity, iirc
     
  11. Onoma

    Onoma Active Member

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    Well, everything's in octal
     
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  12. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    It's a word with a variety of meanings. I'll take it to mean "self-awareness" here and you can correct me if you have some other definition in mind.

    It's only found in the living brains of particular species. I'm not aware of a definition sufficiently specific for us to reliably determine which living things have it and which don't, but we imply from certain animal behaviors that it's not limited to humans.
    I take it you mean bioelectricity? By definition that's only found in living things, and the only place we presently know living things exist is on Earth.
    I dare say the energy part of it doesn't cease to exist, but it ceases to be relevant. On death it irreversibly loses any form useful to the mentation of the deceased's brain (as well as the formerly living cells of the nerves, muscles, organs, and so on).

    And from then on we're dead, and that's the end of the story.

    In particular, we have no reason to think that any part of the living person can exist after the irreversible cessation of the life of the body ─ there's no evidence of a 'soul' or 'ghost' or 'disembodied consciousness' as an entity having objective existence, no clear hypothesis as to how any such thing could exist (let alone such an hypothesis expressed in falsifiable terms) ─ and ample evidence pointing to these things existing only as concepts / things imagined in individual (live) brains.
     
    #32 blü 2, Jan 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
  13. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    No
    See 1st law of thermodynamics
     
  14. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    two years re-baptized into Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    Philosophizing about that now, and by now I mean since many years and for years to come.
     
  15. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    That is not at all what @Polymath257 said.

    No. It would mean that consciousness is something brains do - earthly or otherwise. That it is a function of a material object, as opposed to an independent entity / thing by itself.

    If extra-terrestrial life also has consciousness, they'ld have the material equivalent of what we know as a brain which would be producing that consciousness.
     
  16. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    As we have had astronauts on the moon and they remained conscious, I would say that disproves the hypothesis that consciousness can only exist on earth. Wouldn't you agree?
     
  17. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    Consciousness is a biological phenomena that developed as an adaptive behavior advantage for those organisms that developed increasing complexity of representation of their relationship to their environment. There is no reason to believe that this same biological development could not happen anywhere else with similar supportive environments to allow similar biological evolutionary processes. So the answer is it is definitely possible but we have not yet detected it.
     
  18. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    Convergent evolution finds a way. Evolution has taught us there are many ways to adapt, not just one way.
     
  19. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    For sure
    Octopus intelligence is pretty outer-space.
     
  20. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    More like inevitable, I'd say.

    But you gotta have hands.

    Or anyway, if you are smart, and, want to get in trouble.
     
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