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The Persistent, Extremist Apologetics for Israel's Crimes

Discussion in 'Middle Eastern Politics' started by Debater Slayer, May 11, 2021.

  1. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
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    Amid the recent unfortunate events in Israel and increasingly emboldened illegal occupation, apartheid, and state-sanctioned violence, another elephant in the room stands next to the widespread lack of religious freedom in the Arab world: the Jewish extremism that continually enables amd engages in apologetics for Israel's crimes.

    To many secular-minded, rational observers, it is probably not a remotely alien view that the idea of a "holy" or "God-given" land can be extremely instigating, divisive, and tribalistic. This equally applies to Jewish and Muslim fanatics who continue to justify crimes by their respective groups in the name of religion and/or national identity, yet fanatics keep justifying even the most blatant offenses against human rights as has been the case with Israel's recent crimes.

    My question is whether peace in the region is possible at all without cultural reform. At this point, I'm inclined to believe that without vocally condemning extremist voices and vigilantly combating their falsehoods, it may well be impossible to achieve and maintain peace. As far as I can see, the instigating, extremist voices that add fuel to the fire are a significant part of the problem--be they Jewish or Muslim--and they need to be countered more heavily if the region is to have any hope of peace.

    Discuss.
     
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  2. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    I strongly suspect that the only way there will be peace in that area is when the whole lot of them (all sides) are all dead.
    But the peace will only last for, I am guessing, about 6 hours.
     
  3. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
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    I sure hope that isn't the only way for there to be peace, and I don't believe it is. But I'm also certain things would at least be marginally better if tribalistic, morally dubious apologetics weren't so pervasive in the discourse about the region and its situation.
     
  4. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Long time to hold a grudge.
     
  5. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
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    Would you mind elaborating? I'm not sure what you're getting at.
     
  6. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Hi DS. Sure, but please be aware I know nothing. I first encountered and became aware of this particular conflict when I got picked up by an Israeli person while hitchhiking across Canada in about 1970, some 51 years ago. I think the biggest time of war, if I remember right was in the early 60s? The conflict I'm most aware of has been going on much longer, closer to 2000 years, in Sri Lanka. I just think that communities hold grudges just like people do, and with a grudge, emotion rules over logic. Much later I met a Palestinian here in Canada on another highway in another place at another time.

    My comment was implied that now is now, and it's time to move on. I sense a frustration in folks, like you, that others can't seem to do that. Find a mediator, sit down, take your ego and history out of the situation, and come up with a viable resolution. It seems reasonable to me. Israel, as you say, has been pampered to, and it seems they are the ones most capable of solving the situation long term. But like I said, I'm massively ignorant on the whole thing, particularly this round. Guess I'll have to do some research before commenting further.
     
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  7. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    Hello Debate Slayer,

    Do not know anything about the political aspects of the middle eastern places in todays world. Only know about the middle east when it comes to the information that the bible provides when it talks about Jerusalem or Israel itself.

    It is possible to live in nation with peace if the nation itself is fighting and being hostile to others even with-in it's own country/counties/cities, and towards others?

    Is there any other possibility of achieving peace still even though so?

    Seems highly impossible to have peace if that is the case.
     
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  8. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    In the IT (database) world, there's a concept of a 'deadly embrace' where two programs grab hold of something different and wait for the other to let go of what they're holding before continuing but neither ever do let go.

    I find the expression "deadly embrace" to be apt when considering the unholy mess that is the Israeli-Palestinian situation. We not only have fanatics but people in power on both sides that find it in their interest to stir up more fanaticism and hatred.

    Of course both play the blame game with a list of evil deeds on the other party's part that are much worse than "our" justifiable response. And I'm personally not interested in the argument about who is more than 50% responsible.

    Both sides have committed crimes albeit of a different sort and peace will never come until both sides are willing to let the past go and try to find a way to live together. Someday but not today.
     
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  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I also do not fully understand the situation, so I side with the Israelis. If the other side wants my support they'll have to win me over. I don't believe most of what the UN says, because its just...not a believable entity to me. It gets funding by virtue of there being a problem, and in the past it has misused funds and even been involved in human trafficking. I am aware that Israel isn't squeaky clean, but its nothing like what the PA authority and Hamas claim it is. They claim genocide, yet they are not all dead. I can't believe what they say. Hamas charter says it can never make a treaty, yet it claims that Israel won't make treaties. Also the Hamas and PA seem to loath USA. Why would I side with them?
     
  10. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    So longas everyone involved believes those who disagree with them are to be killed as per their deities command....
     
  11. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Arrogance easily arises

    Arrogance is a known trouble maker
     
  12. Shaul

    Shaul Well-Known Member

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    Here is a list of the number of people killed due to armed conflict in 2020 by location or conflict:
    Afghanistan 20,797
    Yemen 19,780
    Mexican drug wars 8,404
    Boko Haram 8,200
    Syria 7,969
    Nagorno-Karabakh 7,687
    Maghreb 7,047
    Israel/Palestine conflict 34
    List of ongoing armed conflicts - Wikipedia

    There may be many reasons why you single out the Israeli–Palestinian deaths and not many more deaths elsewhere. One reason may be you hate Jews.
     
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  13. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    could it possibly be that this thread is about about what the OP made it about and not about what you want to turn it into?
    Perhaps?
    Maybe?
    Even a wee little teeny bit?
     
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  14. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    It wasn't like full recognized statehood was never offered. Yasser Arafat refused.
     
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  15. Jimmy

    Jimmy Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately If religion never existed bad things would still happen. It’s possible things would’ve been and could be worse.
     
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  16. Shaul

    Shaul Well-Known Member

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    Why are you afraid to discuss his motivations? Never mind, I can guess why.
     
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  17. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I would propose a different approach, although it probably has no chance of ever coming to pass.

    A lot of the problems in this world seem to be that there are too many random elements and excuses for people to start fighting, along with larger powers all too willing to side with them, ally with them, and sell or give them weapons to fight against their enemies, who might be helped by another large power.

    This happened all the time during the Cold War. If the Soviets supported one side in a conflict, we would support the other side, just because we didn't like the Soviets. It had nothing to do with reality or any consistent set of principles. We would support any terrorists or tinpot dictators as long as we believed they were anti-communist.

    Even though the Cold War is over, there's still been a lot of fighting going on. There's one of two approaches we can take. We can just let them fight it out on their own, while we sit and watch. Or, we can intervene in some way or another. A growing number of Americans seem to be against interventionism and support policies more in the direction of isolationism or neutrality in world conflicts. Others might favor interventionism in theory, but find it troubling when put into practice.

    We could offer to mediate, but I don't know how many Middle Eastern peace conferences there have been over the years. There's always some hollow promise about "peace in the Middle East" someday, but looking at it from afar, the whole region seems doomed.

    Whatever "we" decide to do about this, we absolutely have to come to terms with both China and Russia. All of the major powers must be on the same page when it comes to any questions of intervention, mediation, or whatever other measures might be needed to restore order.
     
  18. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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  19. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Active Member

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    I was born in 1961, the height of the Cold War. During my adult life I have seen many seemingly intractable conflicts end peacefully and unexpectedly - the Berlin Wall came down without bloodshed, apartheid ended in South Africa, 30 years of conflict in Northern Ireland ended with the Good Friday agreement.

    I had grown up thinking none of these conflicts would ever be resolved. So yes, there’s hope for the Middle East.
     
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  20. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I hope so, too. The Middle East is a much-conquered, much sought after region, even back before Roman times. It's been a crossroads of trade, commerce, and communication between East and West. And it has great religious significance to a few billion people. Plus, there's all that oil.

    So, even if they resolve one conflict, there's always going to be another one around the corner. Even if all the Middle Eastern factions make peace, there will still likely be outside powers vying for hegemony in the region.
     
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