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The Persistent, Extremist Apologetics for Israel's Crimes

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I hope so, too. The Middle East is a much-conquered, much sought after region, even back before Roman times. It's been a crossroads of trade, commerce, and communication between East and West. And it has great religious significance to a few billion people. Plus, there's all that oil.

So, even if they resolve one conflict, there's always going to be another one around the corner. Even if all the Middle Eastern factions make peace, there will still likely be outside powers vying for hegemony in the region.


Yeah, I suppose geography dictates that the region will always be a point of tension. It has been since the Trojan Wars.

People get tired of hate and war eventually, but it just seems to go dormant and spring up again.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Hi DS. Sure, but please be aware I know nothing. I first encountered and became aware of this particular conflict when I got picked up by an Israeli person while hitchhiking across Canada in about 1970, some 51 years ago. I think the biggest time of war, if I remember right was in the early 60s? The conflict I'm most aware of has been going on much longer, closer to 2000 years, in Sri Lanka. I just think that communities hold grudges just like people do, and with a grudge, emotion rules over logic. Much later I met a Palestinian here in Canada on another highway in another place at another time.

My comment was implied that now is now, and it's time to move on. I sense a frustration in folks, like you, that others can't seem to do that. Find a mediator, sit down, take your ego and history out of the situation, and come up with a viable resolution. It seems reasonable to me. Israel, as you say, has been pampered to, and it seems they are the ones most capable of solving the situation long term. But like I said, I'm massively ignorant on the whole thing, particularly this round. Guess I'll have to do some research before commenting further.


England and France once fought a war that lasted 100 years; technically it wasn’t one war, it was a string of often localised conflicts involving a range of shifting alliances. But then by that definition, 100 years is a conservative estimate of the length of the conflict.

The enmity between these two European neighbours didn’t really end until the middle of the 19th Century. And both countries’ idiot governments sent armed patrol boats to police a fishing dispute in the waters around Jersey, only last week.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I was born in 1961, the height of the Cold War. During my adult life I have seen many seemingly intractable conflicts end peacefully and unexpectedly - the Berlin Wall came down without bloodshed, apartheid ended in South Africa, 30 years of conflict in Northern Ireland ended with the Good Friday agreement.

I had grown up thinking none of these conflicts would ever be resolved. So yes, there’s hope for the Middle East.
Religious competition & hatred complicates things.
I don't expect to ever see peace where all foes have "The Truth".
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Yeah, I suppose geography dictates that the region will always be a point of tension. It has been since the Trojan Wars.

People get tired of hate and war eventually, but it just seems to go dormant and spring up again.
That's because the older generations pass away and new inexperienced generations rise up with that chip on the shoulder begging for a fight.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
It wasn't like full recognized statehood was never offered. Yasser Arafat refused.

Yasser Arafat refused a very generous offer holding out for the right of return, an impossibility for Israel to grant. I think it must be kept in mind that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran etc. what is at stake is Israel's very right to exist. Israel is not exactly innocent allowing the steady increase of settlements far beyond what was allowed to them.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
To many secular-minded, rational observers, it is probably not a remotely alien view that the idea of a "holy" or "God-given" land can be extremely instigating, divisive, and tribalistic. This equally applies to Jewish and Muslim fanatics who continue to justify crimes by their respective groups in the name of religion and/or national identity, yet fanatics keep justifying even the most blatant offenses against human rights as has been the case with Israel's recent crimes.

To my mind, the earth, and all the lands and bodies of water on it are ultimately holy.. I think that you can single out various areas or objects within that range to be holy as well, but I think this is optimally useful if we know that such a device is only the 'microcosm of the macrocosm.' But still, I like the idea of Israel, just because I like the idea of ancient nations and religions persisting. But that sentiment goes for all religions and nations as well, as they have established traditions too, which in turn gives the human experience more novelty. Sometimes, having a variety of views on things creates conflict in the world, but creative variety is also the only way to build good art. Therefore I agree with you when you want to look at both sides of this, but think maybe you might have selected a thread title that would better reflect that sentiment

There may be many reasons why you single out the Israeli–Palestinian deaths and not many more deaths elsewhere.

I think that maybe the death tally alone isn't always necessarily the most alarming thing about developing conflicts, sometimes it has to do with setting unproductive precedents in general civilization. About the same number of people seemed to have recently died in protests in Colombia, for example, but that should still be analyzed because of why that happened the way it had. Any real conflicts that occur in Israel's proximity, however, are alarming because they might trigger a far bigger war.. because that just seems to be the way things are semi-arbitrarily set up in the world. Many in america see Israel as a sort of western nation that is poised at the border of that world, so america might take a strong view on what happens, and then some other powerful nation might take the opposite view.. and then maybe more serious disagreements come to the fore, who knows
 
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Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Well as usual, the vast majority of the deaths and injuries are Palestinian, so its kind of hard to put all the blame on the Palestinians
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Here is a list of the number of people killed due to armed conflict in 2020 by location or conflict:
Afghanistan 20,797
Yemen 19,780
Mexican drug wars 8,404
Boko Haram 8,200
Syria 7,969
Nagorno-Karabakh 7,687
Maghreb 7,047
Israel/Palestine conflict 34
List of ongoing armed conflicts - Wikipedia

There may be many reasons why you single out the Israeli–Palestinian deaths and not many more deaths elsewhere. One reason may be you hate Jews.

1) My post is about systemic discrimination and illegal occupation in Israel. Number of deaths is a significant metric for measuring systemic abuse, but it is far from the only one or the whole story.

2) Your conflation of criticism of Israel with "hating Jews" is the same as Islamists' conflation of criticism of their extremist beliefs with "hating Muslims"/"Islamophobia." Both accusations are zealously partisan and born of fanatic ideology.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
1) My post is about system discrimination and illegal occupation in Israel. Number of deaths is a significant metric for measuring systemic abuse, but it is far from the only one or the whole story.
I noticed yesterday that Biden continued the long practice of saying
that "Israel has the right to defend itself". He & government cast a
blind eye to discrimination, group punishment, state terrorism, &
wrongful deaths that we'd never tolerate here at home.
When Israel does it, government looks away, & continues support
for such policies.

And for the whataboutists on RF, yes, Trump was of the same ilk.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I noticed yesterday that Biden continued the long practice of saying
that "Israel has the right to defend itself". He & government cast a
blind eye to discrimination, group punishment, state terrorism, &
wrongful deaths that we'd never tolerate here at home.
When Israel does it, government looks away, & continues support
for such policies.

And for the whataboutists on RF, yes, Trump was of the same ilk.

I have long been of the belief that U.S. foreign policy toward Israel leans toward being obsequious, tolerant of abusive practices, and hypocritical. The same goes for U.S. foreign policy toward Saudi Arabia.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I have long been of the belief that U.S. foreign policy toward Israel leans toward being obsequious, tolerant of abusive practices, and hypocritical. The same goes for U.S. foreign policy toward Saudi Arabia.

I had a friend who was very big on Bible prophecy, and he literally believed that it was God's will that the U.S. support Israel no matter what. I didn't really understand (nor much remember at this point) his reasoning, but he was very firm on this point. I've heard televangelists say similar things, suggesting that America and Israel have some special role to play in Bible prophecy. I've never even seen the words "United States of America" anywhere in the Bible, so I don't know how they come up with it.

But apart from that, historically, a lot of different factions have found reason to want to fight over that particular piece of territory, regarded by many as the Holy Land.

Other than the religious considerations, we've had a longstanding alliance with Israel. For a time, it was perceived that some of Israel's enemies were being backed by the Soviets, so U.S. support of Israel made some degree of sense on that basis alone. It's also strategically located. There's also the idea that, since we've been allies with Israel for so long, it would be seen as a betrayal if we turned our backs on them now. My high school government teacher (early 80s) suggested our relationship with Israel is like a marriage - for better or worse.

As for our policies regarding Saudi Arabia, I think the main explanation is oil - and keeping other potential rivals away from the Persian Gulf. It's also why we installed and supported the Shah of Iran. Actually, that kind of policy was also commonly practiced in Latin America and the so-called "Banana Republics." We'd install murderous dictators in order to protect the free world from tyranny. We've also seen such practices in Africa and Asia.

I never thought there was any valid justification for any of this, and most of the Cold War propaganda has pretty much fossilized at this point - yet our leaders and policymakers can't think of anything better to do. Some of the more cynical among us might look at US foreign policy from a national interests point of view, an apologia from a quasi-imperialist standpoint, since the US has become so wealthy and powerful as a result. "It's all about economics," as the line goes. Some of it comes across as slightly conspiratorial, so I won't necessarily endorse it, but I would observe that, even if it was true, US national interests appear to have suffered immensely as a result of wasted resources, bloated military budgets, bureaucratic mismanagement, and geopolitical short-sightedness.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
There may be many reasons why you single out the Israeli–Palestinian deaths and not many more deaths elsewhere. One reason may be you hate Jews.
There may be many reasons why you defend indiscriminate violence and terrorism against a stateless people living under brutal occupation. One reason may be that you hate Muslims.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Well as usual, the vast majority of the deaths and injuries are Palestinian, so its kind of hard to put all the blame on the Palestinians
Back when the IDF was publicized gunning down unarmed people at the Israeli-Palestinian border in... possibly 2018?, I've read comments suggesting that the Palestinians deliberately ran into IDF gun fire to make Israel look bad on the news.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
There may be many reasons why you defend indiscriminate violence and terrorism against a stateless people living under brutal occupation. One reason may be that you hate Muslims.
Now, to be fair, I've seen them make similarly callous comments regarding leftists, Black protesters, and the poor, so I doubt there is any actual racism involved here, but possibly a strong attachment to the myth of a just world where everything bad that happens to people below one's station is deserved and morally justified.
 

Yazata

Active Member
Amid the recent unfortunate events in Israel and increasingly emboldened illegal occupation, apartheid, and state-sanctioned violence, another elephant in the room stands next to the widespread lack of religious freedom in the Arab world: the Jewish extremism that continually enables amd engages in apologetics for Israel's crimes.

That reads like a textbook example of 'Poisoning the Well'.

Poisoning the well - Wikipedia
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Now, to be fair, I've seen them make similarly callous comments regarding leftists, Black protesters, and the poor, so I doubt there is any actual racism involved here, but possibly a strong attachment to the myth of a just world where everything bad that happens to people below one's station is deserved and morally justified.
There are leftist antisemites and there extremist Jews who hate the Palestinians. Both are small fractions of their wider communities. I don't expect that the majority of Israelis believe that the bad things that happen to Palestinians are deserved and I imagine a pretty large proportion of Israelis are aware of their own state's part in the troubles.

It's a horror show and I want it to stop and I don't think we should tolerate being called antisemites every time we say so.

I'm not saying @Shaul is a bigot. I'm just snarking back at the implication that people expressing opinions about the frequent massacres are motivated by hatred of Jews.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There may be many reasons why you defend indiscriminate violence and terrorism against a stateless people living under brutal occupation. One reason may be that you hate Muslims.
So try to make a moral equivalency between 100,000 deaths and Israel defending itself against armed attacks.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
So try to make a moral equivalency between 100,000 deaths and Israel defending itself against armed attacks.
Why?

Israel has been defending themselves against schools, hospitals, press offices, residential buildings, human rights demonstrations, children and babies for my entire adult. No amount of bad things elsewhere will make this less bad.
 
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