The Persians, the Baha'is, and the problem of scripture?

[spirit_of_dawn]

What I have understood from Baha'is debating on this forum, is that they do not consider any text scripture unless it has an authorized translation. Regardless of how much I consider this attitude unreasonable, if one were to accept this statement, there arises a whole new set of dilemmas when one refers to Baha'i texts. Consider the following statement:

“Regarding his instruction to the N.S.A. of Iran to the effect that Bahá'u'lláh's writings in Arabic should not be translated into Persian; this applies to the translation of the revealed words into Persian only. Your Assembly, therefore, may proceed with its plan for the rendering of the Tablet of Ahmad, the three daily obligatory prayers and other Tablets, into Urdu,” (Shoghi Effendi, Dawn of a new day [Bahá’í Publishing Trust of India, n.d.], p. 85)
​

According to Baha'i law, the Arabic works of Baha'u'llah cannot be translated into Persian (all other languages are allowed). Thus Persians, are forever handicapped regarding Baha'i theology, teachings, and beliefs for no Persian authorized translation exists or is allowed to be produced from Baha'u'llah's Arabic works. These Arabic works include thousands of Tablets including their most Holy Book: The Kitab-i Aqdas.

So am I wrong if I state Baha'is discriminate against Persians for the mere fact that they are Persians?

 

[Trackdayguy]

Good work.....

 

[Lyndon]

Why do you hate Bahai's so much, are they some kind of threat to you????

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Why do you hate Bahai's so much, are they some kind of threat to you????

No. I love all humanity including Baha'is and I perceive no threat from them. Why would you even say that?! I believe these debates help us all in finding the path of salvation.

 

[Vinayaka]

Why do you hate Bahai's so much, are they some kind of threat to you????

I don't see how pointing out false arguments or hypocrisy in teachings as hate. If a school teacher teaches that Germany is still divided, and you point it out to them, is that hate? There is a tendency to shift disagreeing in a discussion or putting out an alternative POV as hate. It's not. By your logic, the Baha'i's hate all other religions, because they say the truth of those religions has been distorted. Definitely a POV that most Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc would disagree with. All of us non-Bahai's don't believe our teachings have been distorted over time. I personally don't think Bahai's hate the rest of us, they just suffer from speaking their beliefs when it would do more good to keep it to themselves.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The idea that Baha'is are discriminatory towards Persians is ludicrous IMHO. The Baha'is are taught to love all peoples of the world without distinction.

If he is a Baha’i in reality, his deeds and actions will be decisive proofs of it. What are the requirements? Love for mankind, sincerity toward all, reflecting the oneness of the world of humanity, philanthropy, becoming enkindled with the fire of the love of God, attainment to the knowledge of God and that which is conducive to human welfare.
Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 336.

All of Bahá'u'lláh's works are either in Persian and Arabic. He revealed over 15,000 tablets. Some are long (several hundred pages) but most are a page or two, written to a specific individual to answer a question or convey encouragement. If we were to consider the volume of writings they would constitute fifteen times the size of the Bible and about seventy times the size of the Quran. It is the responsibility of the Baha'i administration to ensure high quality translations into score of languages. So far some of the Baha'i writings have been translated into over 800 languages. The short obligatory prayer that Shoghi Effendi references has been tranlated into over 500 languages.

The Persians probably have access to more of Baha'u'llah's Revelation in their native tongue than any other people. Besides some Persians speak both Arabic and Persian. The priority of the translation work is to make available the translation of Baha'u'llah's works accessible to everyone.

 

[oldbadger]

Why do you hate Bahai's so much, are they some kind of threat to you????

I don't know the OP but it is possible.
Do you perceive any members on RF as aggressive to you?

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

The priority of the translation work is to make available the translation of Baha'u'llah's works accessible to everyone.

Except for Persians. Translating to Persian isn't even a priority, it's completely forbidden!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Except for Persians. Translating to Persian isn't even a priority, it's completely forbidden!

I didn't read the words 'completely forbidden'. Its simply an injunction by Shoghi Effendi not to translate Baha'u'llah's Arabic works into Persian. When the time is right the Universal House of Justice will overrule the injunction. Eventually all of Baha'u'llah's works will be available in both English and Persian.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why do you hate Bahai's so much, are they some kind of threat to you????

For what its worth I thought your observation was astute. The OP is a Shi'a Muslim, probably based in Iran where the Baha'is are heavily persecuted, do not have the same rights as other Iranian citizens, and the Baha'i Faith is considered an apostate religion.

Dawn of Spirit has been active on RF for over 3 months with many of her posts attacking the Baha'i Faith by misrepresenting what the Baha'is teach.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I didn't read the words 'completely forbidden'. Its simply an injunction by Shoghi Effendi not to translate Baha'u'llah's Arabic works into Persian.

Let me see. Shoghi died 60 years ago. Since then not a single Tablet of Baha'u'llah has been officially translated into Persian. And you still believe this cannot be labelled as "completely forbidden"?!

For 60 sixty years Persians have been deprived of an authorized Persian translation of the most Holy Baha'i book, the Kitab-i Aqdas and you see no problem in this...

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

For what its worth I thought your observation was astute. The OP is a Shi'a Muslim, probably based in Iran where the Baha'is are heavily persecuted, do not have the same rights as other Iranian citizens, and the Baha'i Faith is considered an apostate religion.

Dawn of Spirit has been active on RF for over 3 months with many of her posts attacking the Baha'i Faith by misrepresenting what the Baha'is teach.

I just love it when you bring up the Shia/Iran Issue. It's like, hey I can't respond to the argument so let's just shoot the messenger. I view your statement as a personal attack that goes against the forum rules. It seems my observation of Baha'i logic needs to be updated:

Baha'i logic:

1- That quote doesn't exist.
2- If it exists, it's not part of Baha'i writings.
3- If it's part of Baha'i writings it doesn't have an official translation.
4- If it has an official translation, you are taking it out of context.
5- If it hasn't been taken out of context it's a metaphor.
6- If it's not a metaphor you have an axe to grind.
7- If you don't have an axe to grind you are probably a Shia Muslim or Iranian agent.
8- If you are not a a Shia Muslim or Iranian agent, you still refuse to see the light.
9- If you are seeing the light then your beliefs are no better than ours.

 

[Vinayaka]

Except for Persians. Translating to Persian isn't even a priority, it's completely forbidden!

I fail to understand why there isn't much more translated. Apparently he wrote a lot, and it's certainly a matter of pride on here.The basic works have been translated into many languages for the purpose of proselytizing in the local languages. That takes energy. But of course no person in that situation would ever be able to dispute the accuracy of the translation, as they only know the language which its translated into, not the original. So they have no chouice really but to accept it. We also here that many are getting translated as we speak, but we here 'in the future' a lot. I'm wondering just when this 'future' is. I heard the main book was translated into Cebuano recently.

Cebuano language - Wikipedia

 

[Dawnofhope]

Let me see. Shoghi died 60 years ago. Since then not a single Tablet of Baha'u'llah has been officially translated into Persian. And you still believe this cannot be labelled as "completely forbidden"?!

For 60 sixty years Persians have been deprived of an authorized Persian translation of the most Holy Baha'i book, the Kitab-i Aqdas and you see no problem in this...

No.

I just love it when you bring up the Shia/Iran Issue. It's like, hey I can't respond to the argument so let's just shoot the messenger. I view your statement as a personal attack that goes against the forum rules. It seems my observation of Baha'i logic needs to be updated:

Baha'i logic:

1- That quote doesn't exist.
2- If it exists, it's not part of Baha'i writings.
3- If it's part of Baha'i writings it doesn't have an official translation.
4- If it has an official translation, you are taking it out of context.
5- If it hasn't been taken out of context it's a metaphor.
6- If it's not a metaphor you have an axe to grind.
7- If you don't have an axe to grind you are probably a Shia Muslim or Iranian agent.
8- If you are not a a Shia Muslim or Iranian agent, you still refuse to see the light.
9- If you are seeing the light then your beliefs are no better than ours.

I personally enjoy having you around.

You obviously have a clear agenda to discredit and misrepresent the Baha'i Faith. Do you deny it?

There is an abundance excellent translations of the Baha'i writings into English. You rely so heavily on works that are not part of writings. It does seem logical to point that out.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

You obviously have a clear agenda to discredit and misrepresent the Baha'i Faith. Do you deny it?

Yes I deny it and your statement is both arrogant and insulting.

There is an abundance excellent translations of the Baha'i writings into English. You rely so heavily on works that are not part of writings. It does seem logical to point that out.

Call me when the UHJ translates the problematic texts that I quote and then I'll use the authorized translations.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes I deny it and your statement is both arrogant and insulting.

Call me when the UHJ translates the problematic texts that I quote and then I'll use the authorized translations.

You're just a number in a long line of folks who have engaged Bahai adherents on this forum. I was totally neutral at one time, but since I can't stand deception, I did enter into the foray, for far too long a time. (There was a very long thread a couple of years back, but it just went in pointless circles.) I had no knowledge whatsoever, unlike some other folks on here, including yourself. But I too am considered an enemy now, as are several of us. Questioning makes you an enemy. Nobody came with the sole intent of discrediting Baha'i. That accusation, I feel is far more true put the opposite way, that some folks, including Baha'i, come here for the sole purpose of promoting their religion, or proselytizing. Please continue as you have, it's quite enlightening to see all points of view. You appear very reasonable to me. (I think being called Dawn of Spirit, instead of Spirit of Dawn is quite telling. I did learn to spell Baha'u'llah eventually.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

You're just a number in a long line of folks who have engaged Bahai adherents on this forum. I was totally neutral at one time, but since I can't stand deception, I did enter into the foray, for far too long a time. (There was a very long thread a couple of years back, but it just went in pointless circles.) I had no knowledge whatsoever, unlike some other folks on here, including yourself. But I too am considered an enemy now, as are several of us. Questioning makes you an enemy. Nobody came with the sole intent of discrediting Baha'i. That accusation, I feel is far more true put the opposite way, that some folks, including Baha'i, come here for the sole purpose of promoting their religion, or proselytizing. Please continue as you have, it's quite enlightening to see all points of view. You appear very reasonable to me. (I think being called Dawn of Spirit, instead of Spirit of Dawn is quite telling. I did learn to spell Baha'u'llah eventually.

Thanks for the support. It's strange that anyone who debates Baha'is eventually is treated in the same manner by them. I'm wondering if they have some sort of handbook that tells them how to treat debaters and those that disagree with them?

 

[Lyndon]

Given that your side tortures and imprisons Bahais, we can hardly take your views with any seriousness.

 

[Firemorphic]

Given that your side tortures and imprisons Bahais, we can hardly take your views with any seriousness.

Dicto simpliciter

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks for the support. It's strange that anyone who debates Baha'is eventually is treated in the same manner by them. I'm wondering if they have some sort of handbook that tells them how to treat debaters and those that disagree with them?

I've had that thought. Certainly 'Use lots of quotes,' is in that handbook, and many proselytizing faiths do have handbooks. As to you, I thought the accusation was inaccurate because you've been a member for 5 years, Surely you would have entered the foray earlier if your entire agenda was anti-Bahai. But it's only been a month or so. A true anti-Baha'i person (and they definitely exist) would sign up, and get right at it, probably spewing lots of venom.