The Perfect Law of God

[SDRAmerica]

Question. If the Law of God is perfect, as Psalms 19:7 says, where is giving in the law?

 

[siti]

Question. If the Law of God is perfect, as Psalms 19:7 says, where is giving in the law?

I don't count myself as a Christian, and to some extent because of this: I agree with a lot of the early part of this video as an entirely appropriate interpretation of scripture.

I would go as far as to suggest that Jesus made giving the fulfillment of the law - for example in Matthew 7:12 and the basis for judgement as in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. There is not a single word in Jesus' teachings that says anything like "you did not believe the right doctrine about 'the Law'", "you did not believe that I (Jesus) am God", "you did not keep the Sabbath properly"...etc. No, rather he said "Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels...I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not..."

The teachings of Christ boil down to this - respect for the sanctity of human life. There is not a single denomination of Christianity that I have examined so far that has this as its defining doctrine. If there were, I would be a Christian. Since there isn't, I just get on with as best I can without religion.

 

[SDRAmerica]

I don't count myself as a Christian, and to some extent because of this: I agree with a lot of the early part of this video as an entirely appropriate interpretation of scripture.

I would go as far as to suggest that Jesus made giving the fulfillment of the law - for example in Matthew 7:12 and the basis for judgement as in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. There is not a single word in Jesus' teachings that says anything like "you did not believe the right doctrine about 'the Law'", "you did not believe that I (Jesus) am God", "you did not keep the Sabbath properly"...etc. No, rather he said "Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels...I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not..."

The teachings of Christ boil down to this - respect for the sanctity of human life. There is not a single denomination of Christianity that I have examined so far that has this as its defining doctrine. If there were, I would be a Christian. Since there isn't, I just get on with as best I can without religion.

It is the glory of God to give. He has given life, He has given a place to live, He has given food, He has given wisdom, truth, and understanding, He has given mercy. It is the glory of God to give, and that, good things. Looking at the 10 Commandments, it really expresses the giving. The heart, is to desire to give, and seek to give, as the 10th Commandment shows. A man should give God the first place in his heart(1st), and give to God, his loving service, and submission(2nd). He should give praise to God for everything that God has created for us(3rd). And even give a portion of his time solely to God, the 4th commandment, the 7th day. I know many people don't see the love in the Sabbath, but that doesn't mean God didn't have any loving intention in the 4th commandment, especially considering the Sabbath was made for man.

Think, a day given to come and spend before the Creator, the One whom is the chiefest of our thoughts, chiefest of our affections. The Sabbath is then a wondeful, glorious day. Spent with the God of love. God is love.

Continuing the commandments, a man is to give glory to God, by giving, whether materials, time, in the 8th to others, loving them as himself. In the 9th, he gives truth, education. In the 7th he is to give his spouse, loving, caring time, and protection, and devotion. In the 6th, he gives his time to save the lives of those who are dying. As a parent, in the 5th, he gives love to his children, constant watchcare and protection.

 

[metis]

Even though I'm neither Catholic nor even Christian, the modern RCC is actually doing quite well in this area. For example, Mennonite and Mormon churches have donated regularly to Catholic Relief Services, which has an excellent record for efficiency in helping 3rd world peoples.

But it goes well beyond that as so many hospitals, soup kitchens (Capuchins, for example), clothing and home needs (St. Vincent de Paul Society, for example), etc. are church organized and run.

 

[siti]

Agreed - I did not intend to besmirch the genuine efforts of Christians to make the world a better place. What I am saying is that although Christ made this the "Kingly Law", "the fulfillment of the law" and the "greatest commandment", none of the various denominations of the Christian Church have "love" and "compassionate giving" as defining doctrines. Of course if they did there would be only one church (small 'c') - each congregation would have its own character, but there would be no deep theological divisions giving rise to violent sectarianism...etc. That love transcends theology is evident in the fact that Mennonites, Catholics and Mormons can cooperate in humanitarian efforts, that theology, and not love, defines the sects of Christianity is evident from the fact there are still Mennonite, Mormon and Catholic Churches...etc. (Not picking on them - just using the same examples).

 

[metis]

But compassion and love are not the only concepts at play, nor should they be as they must deal with interpretations and applications that can vary. Versus when I was a kid, we now see a great deal of cooperation, not only between denominations, but also between religions.

Therefore, to me, it's OK to have our disagreements, but there's also an important need to build bridges and not walls between us.

 

[SDRAmerica]

Agreed - I did not intend to besmirch the genuine efforts of Christians to make the world a better place. What I am saying is that although Christ made this the "Kingly Law", "the fulfillment of the law" and the "greatest commandment", none of the various denominations of the Christian Church have "love" and "compassionate giving" as defining doctrines. Of course if they did there would be only one church (small 'c') - each congregation would have its own character, but there would be no deep theological divisions giving rise to violent sectarianism...etc. That love transcends theology is evident in the fact that Mennonites, Catholics and Mormons can cooperate in humanitarian efforts, that theology, and not love, defines the sects of Christianity is evident from the fact there are still Mennonite, Mormon and Catholic Churches...etc. (Not picking on them - just using the same examples).

Even hearing this hurts my heart. Love cannot rejoice in lies, all those who would be Christians must accept the truth. You cannot come to the knowledge of the truth of God's love, while living in lies in regards to the various doctrines around. Love is the foundation of education. And all theology must be bent this way, because God is love.

 

[SDRAmerica]

Even though I'm neither Catholic nor even Christian, the modern RCC is actually doing quite well in this area. For example, Mennonite and Mormon churches have donated regularly to Catholic Relief Services, which has an excellent record for efficiency in helping 3rd world peoples.

But it goes well beyond that as so many hospitals, soup kitchens (Capuchins, for example), clothing and home needs (St. Vincent de Paul Society, for example), etc. are church organized and run.

The RCC does not obey the 2nd and 4th commandment, about not making idols, nor bowing down to them, but also not observing the Sabbath, which God made for man. The 10 Commandments, True love, is the foundation of all education. Faith in Christ as the Saviour of our souls will lead to love for Christ, and we will observe His Father's law.

 

[metis]

The RCC does not obey the 2nd and 4th commandment, about not making idols, nor bowing down to them

A statue is not an idol unless one worships it, and the RCC teaches that it is not at all proper to worship any statue.

but also not observing the Sabbath, which God made for man.

As we've discussed before, Shabbat is only mandated for us Jews.

The 10 Commandments, True love, is the foundation of all education. Faith in Christ as the Saviour of our souls will lead to love for Christ, and we will observe His Father's law.

There are 613 Laws for us Jews to follow as found in Torah, not just 10 [ Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) ].

Again, if a non-Jew wants to follow the Decalogue or any other commandments, that's their choice.

 

[SDRAmerica]

A statue is not an idol unless one worships it, and the RCC teaches that it is not at all proper to worship any statue.

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Yet Roman Catholics bow down, and serve those images, whom they declare is an image of Jesus, or some other person. That's the very definition of idolatry. You cannot say it is not done, when it is done in plain sight. Idolatry is taught within the Roman Catholic Church.

As we've discussed before, Shabbat is only mandated for us Jews.

Yes we did, and I posted a response of Isaiah 56 which shows the stranger is not to believe the Lord has separated him for His people, and that the stranger is also to keep the Sabbath.

Isaiah 56:2-3 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Isaiah 56:6-7 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

There are 613 Laws for us Jews to follow as found in Torah, not just 10 [ Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) ].

Again, if a non-Jew wants to follow the Decalogue or any other commandments, that's their choice.

Not a choice, a requirement.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[siti]

Even hearing this hurts my heart. Love cannot rejoice in lies, all those who would be Christians must accept the truth. You cannot come to the knowledge of the truth of God's love, while living in lies in regards to the various doctrines around. Love is the foundation of education. And all theology must be bent this way, because God is love.

So are Roman Catholics, Mennonites and Mormons all Christians because they love one another or not really Christians because they don't keep the Sabbath?

 

[metis]

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

Yet Roman Catholics bow down, and serve those images,

Catholics do not "serve" statuary, so please stop fabricating "alternative facts", OK? .

Yes we did, and I posted a response of Isaiah 56 which shows the stranger is not to believe the Lord has separated him for His people, and that the stranger is also to keep the Sabbath.

Only if there is no other option because of intermixing, such as when in the Exodus. It is only when in mixed company that kosher foods, for example, must be served without having non-kosher food.

Not a choice, a requirement.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Again, you ignore the simple fact that the Law refers to all 613 Commandments. Therefore, to cherry-pick the Law itself, selecting out which you want to have followed versus not followed, simply in missing the mark.

The Law-- the entire Law-- was given to Jews at Sinai, although gentiles with us had to follow some aspects of the Law because they were in our company. This process still continues today both in Israel and here in the diasporah amongst orthodox Jews.

If you doubt that I'm right for one minute, ask some of the other Jews that are here. Either that, or maybe do some studying of the Law-- all 613 of them. Maybe check out Judaism 101.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Question. If the Law of God is perfect, as Psalms 19:7 says, where is giving in the law?

In Psalm 34:4-8 there is another similar testimony "I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears. They looked unto him, and were lightened: and their faces were not ashamed. This poor man cried, and the LORD heard *him*, and saved him out of all his troubles. The angel of the LORD encompeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them. O taste and see that the LORD *is* good: blessed *is* the man that trusteth in him." This is involves the laws, because it says 'LORD'. This psalm is suggesting among other things that when the laws are kept the poor are helped. Its somewhere in the law or they wouldn't be singing about it.

There is not a single denomination of Christianity that I have examined so far that has this as its defining doctrine. If there were, I would be a Christian. Since there isn't, I just get on with as best I can without religion.

Um...Quakers. Nobody boils it down more. Will you be converting then? It doesn't matter to me, but you said you would be converting and something about eating your hat too I think.

 

[siti]

Um...Quakers. Nobody boils it down more. Will you be converting then? It doesn't matter to me, but you said you would be converting and something about eating your hat too I think.

What an an excellent point. Did I really say I'd eat my hat? But I wasn't really talking about conversion so much, what I meant was that I would still be a Christian - as I was for a long time earlier in my life. I am, however, very attracted to Quakerism with its emphasis on pacifism, equality and, more recently responsible stewardship of our planet. The Unitarian-Universalists are another option I have looked at. Unfortunately, the nearest meeting places for both are thousands of miles across the ocean from where I am. Most Quakers also believe, I believe, that the "living Christ" guides their "worship" and "decision making" meetings. I think I would struggle with that bit.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What an an excellent point. Did I really say I'd eat my hat? But I wasn't really talking about conversion so much, what I meant was that I would still be a Christian - as I was for a long time earlier in my life. I am, however, very attracted to Quakerism with its emphasis on pacifism, equality and, more recently responsible stewardship of our planet. The Unitarian-Universalists are another option I have looked at. Unfortunately, the nearest meeting places for both are thousands of miles across the ocean from where I am. Most Quakers also believe, I believe, that the "living Christ" guides their "worship" and "decision making" meetings. I think I would struggle with that bit.

I cannot comment adequately on what quakers believe and even less so about unitarian universalists, except that their name is too long and has too many 'U's in it.

 

[SDRAmerica]

So are Roman Catholics, Mennonites and Mormons all Christians because they love one another or not really Christians because they don't keep the Sabbath?

The truth cannot be rejected. In ignorance many reject the Sabbath. But when the truth comes, if after it is made known that the Sabbath must be kept. If it is refused, all the way to the mark of the beast, and finally the mark is accepted, they will be lost.

 

[SDRAmerica]

Catholics do not "serve" statuary, so please stop fabricating "alternative facts", OK? .

They absolutely do. They have images of Mary, serve "her" when "she" commands them to do something, and bow down right before the very image of her. The very definition of idolatry is here fulfilled.

Only if there is no other option because of intermixing, such as when in the Exodus. It is only when in mixed company that kosher foods, for example, must be served without having non-kosher food.

What does that have to do with the Sabbath?

Again, you ignore the simple fact that the Law refers to all 613 Commandments. Therefore, to cherry-pick the Law itself, selecting out which you want to have followed versus not followed, simply in missing the mark.

The Law-- the entire Law-- was given to Jews at Sinai, although gentiles with us had to follow some aspects of the Law because they were in our company. This process still continues today both in Israel and here in the diasporah amongst orthodox Jews.

If you doubt that I'm right for one minute, ask some of the other Jews that are here. Either that, or maybe do some studying of the Law-- all 613 of them. Maybe check out Judaism 101.

God separated the law Himself. The 10 Commandments He wrote Himself in stone, and kept it within the ark. The law of Moses, Moses wrote, and was placed in the side of the ark. The 10 Commandments are eternal truths, and eternal morality is shown in them. The ceremonial law was only added because man committed sin. There would have been no need for laws about sacrifices if man never committed sin. But, the 10 Commandments have always been in existence, and exist also in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[metis]

They absolutely do. They have images of Mary, serve "her" when "she" commands them to do something, and bow down right before the very image of her. The very definition of idolatry is here fulfilled.

What does that have to do with the Sabbath?


God separated the law Himself. The 10 Commandments He wrote Himself in stone, and kept it within the ark. The law of Moses, Moses wrote, and was placed in the side of the ark. The 10 Commandments are eternal truths, and eternal morality is shown in them. The ceremonial law was only added because man committed sin. There would have been no need for laws about sacrifices if man never committed sin. But, the 10 Commandments have always been in existence, and exist also in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Maybe do some studying because you simply do not know what you're talking about.

 

[siti]

The truth cannot be rejected. In ignorance many reject the Sabbath. But when the truth comes, if after it is made known that the Sabbath must be kept. If it is refused, all the way to the mark of the beast, and finally the mark is accepted, they will be lost.

Oh dear!

So which day is the sabbath? Which day is the sabbath in Samoa or Tonga? Which part of the earth first saw the light of the very first day - or more to the point the first sunset? Did the Pacific ocean precede or follow Jerusalem (which is the point from which the astronomical observations of the priests enabled the ancient Hebrews to determine the times and seasons to be observed)? Did they determine the days of the week by the "sunset" astrological convention or the "sunrise" astrological convention? Or did they somehow miraculously anticipate our modern calendar and the arbitrary conventions of the Greenwich Meridian (established by Britain 1851 and only accepted internationally in 1884) and the International dateline (established 1884 and adjusted occasionally since)?

the 10 Commandments have always been in existence, and exist also in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Which day is the sabbath in heaven?

 

[metis]

They have images of Mary

Do you have any pictures in your house? any photographs?

serve "her" when "she" commands them to do something

And exactly how would this supposedly be done? Do any of your pictures in your house talk to you? photographs?

What does that have to do with the Sabbath?

Because they both (Shabbat & kosher) are in the Law.

But, the 10 Commandments have always been in existence, and exist also in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The scriptures do not say that, therefore how could you possibly know this? Also, how could you possibly know that the other 603 Laws weren't always in heaven?

The 10 Commandments are eternal truths, and eternal morality is shown in them. The ceremonial law was only added because man committed sin.

Please provide scriptural evidence for this.

And what you are saying in essence is that the other 603 Laws as found in Torah, whereas Moses makes it clear that they're from God, are "ceremonial"? So, keeping kosher, for example, is a "ceremony"? Proving help for the poor and widows, as Jesus also taught, is a "ceremony"? So, these can just be ignored is the ramification of what you're saying?

You have just made a mockery of much of what Jesus taught.