The Pedigree of Ideas

[Vouthon]

I know, my thread titles are getting more verbose by the day, but please bear with me and don't turn away - with a yawn - just yet. This is a quickie, one of the very few quickie threads I've allowed myself. I'm actively restraining my overindulgent propensity to strain out sentences

"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas"

- Lord Acton (1907) "Essays on Liberty"

​

The "pedigree of ideas" is the history behind ideas. Acton is explaining how the one brave enough to forage into intellectual history - the field that studies the origins and development of ideas - may be in for some unwelcome surprises; they may well find that an idea they value highly came from their political opponents or a worldview they wouldn't conventionally expect or want it to arise from, for instance.

Experience tells me that there is a lot of truth to this notion.

Do you agree?

 

[Sunstone]

Very much in agreement with you and Acton, Sean. I love reading up on the pedigree of ideas -- often for that very reason. There tend to be so many turns and surprises.

But it can be hard finding reliable accounts of how ideas evolve.

 

[Vouthon]

Very much in agreement with you and Acton, Sean. I love reading up on the pedigree of ideas -- often for that very reason. There tend to be so many turns and surprises.

But it can be hard finding reliable accounts of how ideas evolve.

Indeed, tracing the pedigree with reliable source material and demonstrably proving that a chain of transmission - often intra-lingual as well as cross-cultural, which complicates things - actually exists, can be a tricky business.

But when done successfully and with professionalism, the history of ideas has almost a tapestry-like beauty to it that can even dwarf conventional historical studies of events or biographies. And it's also like a centuries or millenia-long detective story, cluedo on steroids if you will.

In terms of the turns and surprises, who would have thought, for example, that the idea of the "erotic dancing girl" was not - in point of fact - the product of the filthy mind of @Sunstone as is conventionally believed, but - shocker - actually originated in the Indus Valley Civilization:

Dancing Girl (sculpture) - Wikipedia

Dancing Girl is a prehistoric bronze sculpture made in approximately 2500 BCE in the Indus Valley Civilisation city of Mohenjo-daro (in modern-day Pakistan), which was one of the earliest human cities. The statue is 10.5 centimetres (4.1 in) tall, and depicts a naked young woman or girl with stylized proportions standing in a confident, naturalistic pose.

Large eyes, flat nose, well-fed cheeks, bunched curly hair and broad forehead define the iconography of the lady, while a tall figure with large legs and arms, high neck, subdued belly, moderately sized breasts and sensuously modeled waist-part along vagina, her anatomy.

The figure has been cast as wearing on her breasts a necklace with four 'phalis' like shaped pendants. Though a small work of art, it is impressive and surpasses in plasticity and sensuousness the heavily ornate terracotta figurines.​

This challenged my entire preconceived worldview when I first laid eyes on that sculpture.

You never know what you might discover.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I know, my thread titles are getting more verbose by the day, but please bear with me and don't turn away - with a yawn - just yet. This is a quickie, one of the very few quickie threads I've allowed myself. I'm actively restraining my overindulgent propensity to strain out sentences

"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas"

- Lord Acton (1907) "Essays on Liberty"

​

The "pedigree of ideas" is the history behind ideas. Acton is explaining how the one brave enough to forage into intellectual history - the field that studies the origins and development of ideas - may be in for some unwelcome surprises; they may well find that an idea they value highly came from their political opponents or a worldview they wouldn't conventionally expect or want it to arise from, for instance.

Experience tells me that there is a lot of truth to this notion.

Do you agree?

RF is been a great place to learn about history, religion, and philosophy. Appreciating how the Islamic Golden Age was arguably the most significant factor towards igniting the European renaissance is a good example. The Arabs in turn drew inspiration from the Greeks, Persians, Indians and Chinese.

Talk about brevity....

 

[Sunstone]

I suspect tracing the history of ideas is one of the more demanding challenges in the study of history.

Case in point. David Hume was one of the most influential creators of ideas in the history of the West, but it seems that at least one or two of his most influential ideas were not really his creations. That is, they have come down to us from Hume as popular misunderstandings of his ideas. So, who then created the misunderstandings? And do we give credit for the ideas to Hume -- or to the anonymous person or persons who misunderstood Hume?

 

[Vouthon]

I suspect tracing the history of ideas is one of the more demanding challenges in the study of history.

Case in point. David Hume was one of the most influential creators of ideas in the history of the West, but it seems that at least one or two of his most influential ideas were not really his creations. That is, they have come down to us from Hume as popular misunderstandings of his ideas. So, who then created the misunderstandings? And do we give credit for the ideas to Hume -- or to the anonymous person or persons who misunderstood Hume?

What a great point!

Misunderstandings of an idea can be as revolutionary as an idea itself.

I guess, we need only ask poor Nietzsche about that.

 

[Vouthon]

So, for all the intellectual history lovers out there...whose your favorite intellectual historian?

I'm partial to Quentin Skinner of the Cambridge School:

Cambridge School (intellectual history) - Wikipedia

 

[Sunstone]

Indeed, tracing the pedigree with reliable source material and demonstrably proving that a chain of transmission - often intra-lingual as well as cross-cultural, which complicates things - actually exists, can be a tricky business.

But when done successfully and with professionalism, the history of ideas has almost a tapestry-like beauty to it that can even dwarf conventional historical studies of events or biographies. And it's also like a centuries or millenia-long detective story, cluedo on steroids if you will.

In terms of the turns and surprises, who would have thought, for example, that the idea of the "erotic dancing girl" was not - in point of fact - the product of the filthy mind of @Sunstone as is conventionally believed, but - shocker - actually originated in the Indus Valley Civilization:

Dancing Girl (sculpture) - Wikipedia

Dancing Girl is a prehistoric bronze sculpture made in approximately 2500 BCE in the Indus Valley Civilisation city of Mohenjo-daro (in modern-day Pakistan), which was one of the earliest human cities. The statue is 10.5 centimetres (4.1 in) tall, and depicts a naked young woman or girl with stylized proportions standing in a confident, naturalistic pose.

Large eyes, flat nose, well-fed cheeks, bunched curly hair and broad forehead define the iconography of the lady, while a tall figure with large legs and arms, high neck, subdued belly, moderately sized breasts and sensuously modeled waist-part along vagina, her anatomy.

The figure has been cast as wearing on her breasts a necklace with four 'phalis' like shaped pendants. Though a small work of art, it is impressive and surpasses in plasticity and sensuousness the heavily ornate terracotta figurines.​

This challenged my entire preconceived worldview when I first laid eyes on that sculpture.

You never know what you might discover.

BUSTED! You might be closer to the truth than either one of us has suspected until now! I first came across the Dancing Girl sculpture when I was an undergraduate 40 years ago. I did a paper on the Indus Valley Civilization for an anthropology class. At the time, almost nothing was known of the civilization -- which is what inspired me to dig up everything I could about it. And that wasn't much.

Well, so there you have it. I'm going to start claiming my religion dates back perhaps 4,500 years!

 

[Vouthon]

BUSTED! You might be closer to the truth than either one of us has suspected until now!

Shhh..don't tell anyone just yet!

This is the erotic dancing girl version of discovering the holy grail, after all.

It's a huge moment for both of us.

 

[Sunstone]

RF is been a great place to learn about history, religion, and philosophy. Appreciating how the Islamic Golden Age was arguably the most significant factor towards igniting the European renaissance is a good example. The Arabs in turn drew inspiration from the Greeks, Persians, Indians and Chinese.

Talk about brevity....

I have read that one of the contributions of the Arab Golden Age to the later rise in Europe of the sciences was the Arab insistence on experimentation to confirm (or disconfirm) theory. From what little I know on the subject, it makes sense to say the Arabs were the first to point out the significance of experimentation in the sciences.

 

[Sunstone]

What's a good case of an embarrassing pedigree?

In America (but not so much elsewhere, thank goodness), I think at least some fundamentalist Christians might be at least a wee bit embarrassed if they could fully appreciate that some of the social and economic ideas currently popular among them come from the notorious anti-Christ, Ayn Rand.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This challenged my entire preconceived worldview.

You never know what you might discover.

I too googled 'erotic dancing girls'. Alas, what I discovered was entirely predictable.

 

[Sunstone]

Another embarrassing pedigree for at least some very anti-Christianity folks might be how the Christian notion of the equality of all souls before God seems to have decisively influenced the radical epistemic equality of the European Enlightenment and specifically some modern justifications for democracy. If you're both anti-Christian and pro-democracy, you might have a problem with that.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I have read that one of the contributions of the Arab Golden Age to the later rise in Europe of the sciences was the Arab insistence on experimentation to confirm (or disconfirm) theory. From what little I know on the subject, it makes sense to say the Arabs were the first to point out the significance of experimentation in the sciences.

Copernicus heliocentric view appears strongly influenced by Islamic scholars.

The Maragha school of astronomy in Ilkhanid-era Persia further developed "non-Ptolemaic" planetary models involving earth's rotation. Notable astronomers of this school are Al-Urdi, Al-Katibi (d. 1277),and Al-Tusi (d. 1274).

The arguments and evidence used resemble those used by Copernicus to support the Earth's motion. The criticism of Ptolemy as developed by Averroes and by the Maragha school explicitly address the earth's rotation but it did not arrive at explicit heliocentrism. The observations of the Maragha school were further improved at the Timurid-era Samarkand observatory under Qushji (1403–1474).

European scholarship in the later medieval period actively received astronomical models developed in the Islamic world and by the 13th century was well aware of the problems of the Ptolemaic model.

Heliocentrism - Wikipedia

So to believe the Muslims and Arabs have always been backwards is to disregard world history.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Shhh..don't tell anyone just yet!

This is the erotic dancing girl version of discovering the holy grail, after all.

It's a huge moment for both of us.

ARTHUR: Cut down a tree with a herring? It can't be done!

OTHER KNIGHTS: (they all recoil in horror) Oh!

TALL KNIGHT: Don't say that word.

ARTHUR: What word?

TALL KNIGHT: I cannot tell you. Suffice to say is one of the words the Knights of Ni! cannot hear!

ARTHUR: How can we not say the word, if you don't tell us what it is?

TALL KNIGHT: (cringing in fear) You said it again!

ARTHUR: What, 'is'?

TALL KNIGHT: (dismissively) No, no ... not 'is'!

OTHER KNIGHTS: Not 'is'! Not 'is'!

[Suddenly singing is heard from deep in the forest.]

SIR ROBIN'S SINGERS: Bravely good Sir Robin was not at all afraid To have his eyeballs skewered ...

TALL KNIGHT: (irritated) 'Is' is all right ... You wouldn't get far not saying 'Is'!

BEDEVERE: My liege, it's Sir Robin!

TALL KNIGHT: (covering his ears) You've said the word again!

 

[Augustus]

Another embarrassing pedigree for at least some very anti-Christianity folks might be how the Christian notion of the equality of all souls before God seems to have decisively influenced the radical epistemic equality of the European Enlightenment and specifically some modern justifications for democracy. If you're both anti-Christian and pro-democracy, you might have a problem with that.

Or that Secular Humanism is pretty much Greek rationalism + liberal Christianity without the God bit, which was phased out via a bit of Providential Deism. They tend to really hate that.

And, in turn an embarrassing pedigree for some Christians would be Christian teleology and universalism contributing important foundations to Marxist thought, via Hegel. Or if we were being mischievous and again wanted to embarrass some Secular Humanists we could focus on how their vaunted 'Enlightenment Values' contributed to the French Revolution, and thus also to Marxist thought.

You can even annoy some Christians and Humanists at the same time by pointing out that Christianity has always been influenced by Greek philosophy and the fact that it was open to influence has shaped the course of its history.

 

[Augustus]

Another embarrassing pedigree for at least some very anti-Christianity folks might be how the Christian notion of the equality of all souls before God seems to have decisively influenced the radical epistemic equality of the European Enlightenment and specifically some modern justifications for democracy. If you're both anti-Christian and pro-democracy, you might have a problem with that.

I see your game Mr Sunstone. Erotic Dancing Girls my foot! You are merely pretending to be a worshipper of Erotic Dancing Girls, and are in fact a sneaky undercover Christian apologist!

Your avuncular online persona is really a mendacious exercise in subterfuge with the purpose of converting everyone to hardcore fundamentalist Jesusism. You hope to achieve this goal by deviously giving a fair representation of the views of respected secular historians on a moderately popular online discussion forum.

It is incredibly dishonest to accurately present the well-evidenced views of credible academic figures when such views aren't in chime with other people's ideological preferences, especially when these people are absolutely certain that they are highly rational and base all their opinions on a solid foundation of truth.

You know that if you openly acknowledged your gratuitous Jesusistic tendencies then you would be laughed out of town like the charlatan you are, so instead you cower behind a cover of the scantily-clad, writhing, seductive female form.

Imagine if a child stumbled upon this site and after discovering your so-called "truth" that Christianity contributed to certain non-negative aspects of European society, they would be powerless to resist instant conversion to Christianity and a life of servitude to the evil Church.

Shame on you!

 

[Sunstone]

I see your game Mr Sunstone. Erotic Dancing Girls my foot! You are merely pretending to be a worshipper of Erotic Dancing Girls, and are in fact a sneaky undercover Christian apologist!

Your avuncular online persona is really a mendacious exercise in subterfuge with the purpose of converting everyone to hardcore fundamentalist Jesusism. You hope to achieve this goal by deviously giving a fair representation of the views of respected secular historians on a moderately popular online discussion forum.

It is incredibly dishonest to accurately present the well-evidenced views of credible academic figures when such views aren't in chime with other people's ideological preferences, especially when these people are absolutely certain that they are highly rational and base all their opinions on a solid foundation of truth.

You know that if you openly acknowledged your gratuitous Jesusistic tendencies then you would be laughed out of town like the charlatan you are, so instead you cower behind a cover of the scantily-clad, writhing, seductive female form.

Imagine if a child stumbled upon this site and after discovering your so-called "truth" that Christianity contributed to certain non-negative aspects of European society, they would be powerless to resist instant conversion to Christianity and a life of servitude to the evil Church.

Shame on you!

I find your characterization of me as "evil" appallingly just and fair-minded. And to think! You dare to call yourself an RFer!

 

[Augustus]

"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas"

- Lord Acton (1907) "Essays on Liberty"

​

The "pedigree of ideas" is the history behind ideas. Acton is explaining how the one brave enough to forage into intellectual history - the field that studies the origins and development of ideas - may be in for some unwelcome surprises; they may well find that an idea they value highly came from their political opponents or a worldview they wouldn't conventionally expect or want it to arise from, for instance.

Experience tells me that there is a lot of truth to this notion.

Do you agree?

It is certainly true, particularly when these ideas form part of our 'sacred beliefs', that is core tenets of our ideology. We hate revising beliefs when doing so would cause emotional discomfort

I believe identity draws as much (if not more) from who we like to think we are not, as from who we think we are.

When someone claims one of our sacred values has owes a debt to a group/ideology we define ourselves in opposition to, then we have a tendencies to consider such an idea preposterous as accepting it as having even a shred of truth is emotionally disturbing.

There is little room for nuance when accepting this would call for a revision in ideological certainties.

As well as an emotional cost, there can often also be a social cost to abandoning one of our group's sacred beliefs as you may lose respect, status or even friends or jobs. This exponentially increases the need to conform (as an aside, I always find it funny that no group is more predictable or uniform in thought than those who self-define as 'freethinkers')

We don't look for reasons why challenging ideas might be true, but for reasons why we are right to reject them (which are usually easy to find manufacture). Some studies have shown people with better analytical reasoning are less likely to be persuaded by evidence that disproves ideological beliefs than people with weaker reasoning skills. This is because they use these skills to create a justification for belief preservation.

We are rarely directly persuaded by the evidence in a rational manner as we like to think we should be, but become more open to new ideas only after a subconscious weakening of the emotional hold of our ideologies. Heightening emotions thus strengthens existing beliefs.

Other studies have shown that exposure to facts which contradict our beliefs can actually make us more certain we are correct, which is why debates never persuade anyone as we all know from RF anyway

 

[Sunstone]

...you cower behind a cover of the scantily-clad, writhing, seductive female form.

If you happen to know of a better place to cower, I'm all ears.