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The origins of monotheism, the one true God, and men pretending to speak for the one true God

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Perhaps I misunderstood. Did you not just a few posts earlier say that you trusted what the Christian scriptures say about Jesus?
I trust what the 'Christian scriptures' say about Jesus, more or less, but I do not trust what the 'Christians' say about Jesus.
Now do you understand? ;)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I trust what the 'Christian scriptures' say about Jesus, more or less, but I do not trust what the 'Christians' say about Jesus.
Now do you understand? ;)
Not at all, because the Chrisitan Scriptures ARE written by Christians. You can't make both statements and not contradict yourself.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I was not referring to the Christians who wrote those scriptures. I was referring to the Christians who interpreted them.
What I'm saying is that:
Chrisitans wrote the scriptures about Jesus, including what he said..
Buddhists wrote the rock inscriptions, pillars, and pagodas about the Buddha.
It makes no sense to accept the first and not accept the latter. At one should accept them with the same degree of skepticism or acceptance.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What I'm saying is that:
Chrisitans wrote the scriptures about Jesus, including what he said..
Buddhists wrote the rock inscriptions, pillars, and pagodas about the Buddha.
It makes no sense to accept the first and not accept the latter. At one should accept them with the same degree of skepticism or acceptance.
What I am saying is that I accept the scriptures but not necessarily the various interpretations of those scriptures.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
What I am saying is that I accept the scriptures but not necessarily the various interpretations of those scriptures.
Of the Buddhists as well?

I'm just trying to find out if you have one set of standards, or if religiously you have a preference.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Of the Buddhists as well?

I'm just trying to find out if you have one set of standards, or if religiously you have a preference.
No, it would be across the board. I mean I would not accept any interpretations of any scriptures from the followers of any religion without question. I would rather seek to understand what God intended for them to mean.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I recently watched an episode from Morgan Freeman's TV series on God. Here is the segment:


Akhenaten got rid of all the major Egyptian gods and invented Aten another name for Ra the sun god. Aten was to be worshiped as the only one true god. And Akhenaten claimed he was the only spokesman for Aten on Earth. Akhenaten's will was Aten's will.

"Others have likened some aspects of Akhenaten's relationship with the Aten to the relationship, in Christian tradition, between Jesus Christ and God, particularly interpretations that emphasize a more monotheistic interpretation of Atenism than a henotheistic one."

Akhenaten became a single high king priest and the high priests of the other gods lost all their power as all the power was accumulated under a single monarchy. This made the once powerful priests very angry! The priests who lost their power wanted to crucify Akhenaten!

"The idea that Akhenaten was the pioneer of a monotheistic religion that later became Judaism has been considered by various scholars."

Akhenaten - Wikipedia

But not surprisingly Jewish scholars have poo-poo'd the idea their religion of monotheism was not of their own invention:

"There is little or no evidence to support the notion that Akhenaten was a progenitor of the full-blown monotheism that we find in the Bible. The monotheism of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament had its own separate development – one that began more than half a millennium after the pharaoh's death."

But the similarities are too obvious. Psalm 104 and "Great Hymn to the Aten" are practically identical. Prior to Akhenaten monotheism simply did not exist anywhere in recorded history. Akhenaten was the first to invent it. And it was hugely successful in consolidating power!

This idea of a single "Lord" God where the king on Earth forms a divine monarchy was very appealing to those who desire absolute power over their subjects. The "messenger" of God holds tremendous power over the people who buy into the message.

King James was a big proponent of the divine rights of kings as outlined in his book The True Law of Free Monarchies.

The True Law of Free Monarchies - Wikipedia

The idea of the divine rights of kings I find is somewhat evil, selfish, and self-serving for the person in the position of power. But you be the judge:

"The divine right of kings, divine right, or God's mandate is a political and religious doctrine of royal and political legitimacy. It stems from a specific metaphysical framework in which the king (or queen) is pre-selected as a heir prior to their birth. By pre-selecting the king's physical manifestation, the governed populace actively (rather than merely passively) hands the metaphysical selection of the king's soul – which will inhabit the body and thereby rule them – over to God. In this way, the "divine right" originates as a metaphysical act of humility or submission towards the Godhead. Consequentially, it asserts that a monarch (e.g. a king) is subject to no earthly authority, deriving the right to rule directly from a divine authority, like the monotheist will of God. The monarch is thus not subject to the will of his people, of the aristocracy, or of any other estate of the realm. It implies that only divine authority can judge an unjust monarch and that any attempt to depose, dethrone or restrict their powers runs contrary to God's will and may constitute a sacrilegious act. It is often expressed in the phrase "by the Grace of God", attached to the titles of a reigning monarch; although this right does not make the monarch the same as a sacred king. The divine right has been a key element for legitimizing many absolute monarchies."

Essentially the king speaks for God because the king and God are of the same mind.

This has a long history in Christianity:

"Outside of Christianity,[clarification needed] kings were often seen as either ruling with the backing of heavenly powers or perhaps even being divine beings themselves. However, the Christian notion of a divine right of kings is traced to a story found in 1 Samuel, where the prophet Samuel anoints Saul and then David as mashiach or king over Israel. The anointing is to such an effect that the monarch became inviolable, so that even when Saul sought to kill David, David would not raise his hand against him because "he was the Lord's anointed"."

All throughout history hundreds of people have claimed to be messengers for God:

List of people who have been considered deities - Wikipedia

Kings are supposedly messengers of God. I have a tough time with this idea of divine monarchy. I think the Bible is written as authoritarian propaganda justifying monarchy as divine government. I live in the New York City area where there's an expression, "He's selling you the Brooklyn bridge.". The idea is shysters will sell you something they do not own. This is how I feel about the divine rights of kings. I feel like whoever is in power is being shyster selling something they do not own.

I feel the mind of God is beyond our comprehension and no one speaks for God.

So what do you think? Are kings and messengers of God claiming to speak for God nothing but shysters pretending to know the mind of God? Or are you believing someone selling you the Brooklyn bridge is legitimate?

From my continuous study of Egyptian Mythology I am seeing quite a few things that are similar but slightly different patterns between Egyptian mythology and the religion of the Israelites even apart from Atenism. For instance the relationship between the Pharoah and the Sun God Ra is similar to the relationship between Jesus and YHWH. They both are and are not the God. And their link to the God is through Holy Spirit or Ka, which is one of the three aspects of a spirit in Egyptian Myth. Also there was an evolution in Egyptian myth that started with only Pharoah having an immortal soul to even the average person having an immortal soul, or at least having the privilege of their soul living for ever and being a part of but not a part of God (through spirit or Ka).

Very interesting topic.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I recently watched an episode from Morgan Freeman's TV series on God. Here is the segment:

So what do you think? Are kings and messengers of God claiming to speak for God nothing but shysters pretending to know the mind of God? Or are you believing someone selling you the Brooklyn bridge is legitimate?

Greetings. I may be able to shed some light on this from a Torah based Jewish perspective.

The claim made in Jewish texts, written in Hebrew, is not one of monothesism as expressed in the western world. I.e. a beleif in a "god" per say at odds with other religions. The position held by Torath Mosheh/Judaism is the following.
  1. There is one source of Creation which is not human nor corporeal. (Expressed in all Jewish Torah based texts)
  2. The source of Creation was known to all humans from Adam to Enosh. I.e. the same information to Adam about the source of Creation was also known to his descendants until Enosh. (See Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Avodah Zara Chapter 1 written by Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon)
  3. Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon, in the above text, states that early in the history of modern humans all people knew about the being one source of creation, yet during the time of Enosh various types of Avodah Zara (Idolotry) were invented by various peoples/cultures to the point where at first they recognized the source but added created items to the lsit of things that deserve worship along with the Creator and then that led to a number of cultures being more invested in the idolotry than in the recgonition of the previously known one Creator.
  4. Rabbi Mosheh bein-Maimon (Rambam) (1135-2014) stated stated in his work called the Mishnah Torah that this changed when Avraham ben-Terach (Abraham) came on the scene. He was born into a culture doing idolotry and he himself did it until he figured out that Hashem was the one true source of creation and not all of the various idolotries that had been invented by various cultures.
  5. From Avraham (Abraham) until the time of Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) the descendents Avraham (Abraham) had followed the path that Avraham started when he came to understand and follow the Torah of his time (7 commandments with his family and his household having the addition of circumcision).
  6. When the people of Israel were led out of Egypt and to Mount Sinai the Creator of all things gave a national revelation, revealing its reality, to the entire Israeli people and the also the mixed crowd of non-Israelis who left Egypt with them.
  7. Out fhis revelation, and others following it, came the written Torah and the oral Torah which Jews still maintain today.
That is, in short, is the claim and according to Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon's other writings in a book called the Guide to the Perplexed it makes sense that other cultures would be found that beleived in some form of one-deity that created everything. (A number of ancient cultures can be found with this as their concept before the idea of more deities were added) Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon also wrote that if ancient writings of various ancient people's were to be found then one would understand the historical content in the Torah better.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Greetings. I may be able to shed some light on this from a Torah based Jewish perspective.

The claim made in Jewish texts, written in Hebrew, is not one of monothesism as expressed in the western world. I.e. a beleif in a "god" per say at odds with other religions. The position held by Torath Mosheh/Judaism is the following.
  1. There is one source of Creation which is not human nor corporeal. (Expressed in all Jewish Torah based texts)
  2. The source of Creation was known to all humans from Adam to Enosh. I.e. the same information to Adam about the source of Creation was also known to his descendants until Enosh. (See Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Avodah Zara Chapter 1 written by Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon)
  3. Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon, in the above text, states that early in the history of modern humans all people knew about the being one source of creation, yet during the time of Enosh various types of Avodah Zara (Idolotry) were invented by various peoples/cultures to the point where at first they recognized the source but added created items to the lsit of things that deserve worship along with the Creator and then that led to a number of cultures being more invested in the idolotry than in the recgonition of the previously known one Creator.
  4. Rabbi Mosheh bein-Maimon (Rambam) (1135-2014) stated stated in his work called the Mishnah Torah that this changed when Avraham ben-Terach (Abraham) came on the scene. He was born into a culture doing idolotry and he himself did it until he figured out that Hashem was the one true source of creation and not all of the various idolotries that had been invented by various cultures.
  5. From Avraham (Abraham) until the time of Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) the descendents Avraham (Abraham) had followed the path that Avraham started when he came to understand and follow the Torah of his time (7 commandments with his family and his household having the addition of circumcision).
  6. When the people of Israel were led out of Egypt and to Mount Sinai the Creator of all things gave a national revelation, revealing its reality, to the entire Israeli people and the also the mixed crowd of non-Israelis who left Egypt with them.
  7. Out fhis revelation, and others following it, came the written Torah and the oral Torah which Jews still maintain today.
That is, in short, is the claim and according to Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon's other writings in a book called the Guide to the Perplexed it makes sense that other cultures would be found that beleived in some form of one-deity that created everything. (A number of ancient cultures can be found with this as their concept before the idea of more deities were added) Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon also wrote that if ancient writings of various ancient people's were to be found then one would understand the historical content in the Torah better.

Even in certain Ancient Egyptian mythologies apart from Atenism, Atum is pretty much the creator God. There were Gods before him who represent void, waters etc, who represented chaos, but he pretty much made everything.
 

allright

Active Member
Abraham was a monothesis long before Akhebaten was born and the Jews were living in Egypt
for several hundred years before him
He got the idea from them
 
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