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The Olive Tree

I reject Paul completely. History itself proves that he was wrong: How many other exiled groups have kept their language, religion, and culture for about 2,000 years, suffering persecution and execution of many of their population? Unless every Jew today is the "remnant" Paul was speaking of, he appears to be a false prophet. Especially since most Jews don't accept Jesus.

Edit: It's almost sunset, so I won't be able to reply until Sunday if you make a post.
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Active Member
We must accept the sweet with the bitter. There is a small Remnant of Jews who have always remained in Ethiopia as the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church even today has the one and only Ark of the Covenant.

Indeed in Ancient times the Borders of Israel stretched down to include Ethiopia as the World has expanded much since then. Indeed the Ethiopians are the Remnant that has been spoken of in Romans 11 and elsewhere throughout the Bible. Indeed the Remnant is all that remains of the seed of Abraham. Indeed the Remnant is being recalled to Israel but it is not the Jews who lie but the Jews who have always professed Christ as Lord and Savior.

Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Romans 11
King James Version (KJV)
11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

John 5:46

It seems there are a lot of understanding or commentaries regarding Romans 11th Chapter. What is your view?
Whether it’s here or in any of his other letters, Paul isn't teaching anything different than what the Torah teaches. (Stands to reason since Paul had the Torah memorized before he was 13 and clung to it until the day he died.)


Active Member
It seems there are a lot of understanding or commentaries regarding Romans 11th Chapter. What is your view?
Hi, Garrydons

Freelance and Sculelos appear to be expressing opinions not generally considered "Mainstream Messianic" as I have seen it described here. While they are certainly welcome to their opinions, I hope you don't get the impression that they represent the rest of us.

Here is my personal understanding of the "olive tree" parable of Romans 11. First of all, I consider the "cultivated olive" to be the Jewish PEOPLE, not any particular school of doctrine. In Jesus' day, Jesus was only one of many teachers of Judaism. Most of the others accepted or rejected one another according to their acknowledgement of certain teachers, such as Hillel and Shammai, who (if they actually existed, which I believe they did) followings of disciples. Jesus had his own following, devoted to him and not necessarily to those accepted by the other schools. That caused the latter to describe him and his as "unlearned", the disdain and animosity growing over the years until they began saying Jesus "had a devil".

Over the centuries, only one main sect of Jews has survived -- that of the Pharisees. All mainstream Jews belong to this sect; and even the miniscule sect of the Karaites are historically descended from them. In the early church, nearly all believers were ethnic Jews. Jesus himself was considered a Pharisee. We know this because the Pharisees, who were EXTREMELY careful about whom they ate with, invited Jesus into their homes to eat. Others who rejected Jesus, such as the Sadducees and Herodians, rejected him in the same way they rejected the other Pharisees. The PHARISEES, on the other hand, ultimately rejected Jesus because he did not affirm their legitimacy: He judged them by a standard they did not use among themselves, namely, the genuineness of their presumed devotion to God. That was the root of the intese hatred of the JEWS toward Jesus and his followers.

Christians also developed a studied, intense separation from the Jews. I believe this stemmed from the destruction of the Second Temple, which gentile Christians looked upon as a judgment by God of the Jewish people. This separation developed into genuine hatred, stoked by the natural antipathy the gentiles had towards the Jews: Pagan gentiles had developed a religiosity wherein they acknowledged and accepted one anothers' gods, whereas the Jews had insisted that THEIR God was the only legitimate one. Even when those pagans converted to Christianity, which was nominally derived from the Jewish faith, they kept this prejudice, which we know today by the names "Antisemitism" and "Anti-Zionism".

Paul gave the "olive tree" parable, to deal with this split which was, in his day, in its infancy. The olive tree was and is the nation of Israel, and the "cutting off", in Paul's view, was God's rejection of the UNBELIEVING (in Jesus as Messiah) Jews. Some natural branches remained in the tree, namely, believing Jews such as Paul himself. Others, such as Titus, were grafted into the JEWISH NATION, in Paul's eyes, because of their faith in Jesus. The "baptism" of John, and the subsequent practice of baptism into the church, were forms of the Jewish "mikvah" that is required to this day of converts.

The other ritual requirement is circumcision, which Paul and the other church leaders determined was no longer necessary for recognition as true Jews. There are two reasons that I speculate this was done:

1. Jesus accepts followers, based on a MORE STRINGENT requirement than the Jews used -- namely, their adherence to HIS commandment, that we love one another. That commandment, Jesus taught, was one of the two greatest (the other being our love of God), upon which all other commandments hung.

2. Circumcision was not exclusively a mark of the Jews: It was used by the Egyptians, Arabs and Syrians as well. It therefore had lost its primary function of physically identifying those of the Abrahamic covenant.

Peter called the church the "twelve tribes, which are scattered abroad" in his epistle. Jesus also spoke of the church to John in Revelation, as the "Jews", saying that the others (the Pharisaical remnant) were not actually real Jews. According to this thinking, those who today call themselves Jews are not "true" Jews in Jesus' eyes, the only "true" Jews being those who were of like spirit with Jesus himself.

In saying this, Jesus did not separate the Pharisaicals from being heirs to the covenants of the Patriarchs: His saying had to be considered metaphorically (i. e. not as "transfer theology"). The Pharisaical Jews of today are just as much natural "Jews" as their pre-Christian ancestors were; and in fact their uncircumcised Christian peers are NOT natural Jews, being uncircumcised. In SPIRIT, however, Jesus sees them as cut off; they must be re-grafted into the tree by faith and love, in order to be "True Jews" in his eyes.

I hope this helps. As I said, it is my personal view.
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Active Member
It just occurred to me that Revelation speaks of TWO olive trees, as the "Two Witnesses", both of them supplying oil to the 7-light menorah (cf. the Prophets, which also speak of two olive trees). Revelation also speaks of 24 Elders, whereas there are only twelve tribes of Israel. Both the Jews and the Christians have been witnesses of the glory of God, each in its own way; so I think Israel and the church are the two olive trees.

I usually don't mix metaphors like this, but these two (in Romans & Revelation) seem too close to ignore.


Active Member
It seems there are a lot of understanding or commentaries regarding Romans 11th Chapter. What is your view?

My view is that if Gentiles do not leave their christmass-tree branches behind and be grafted into the Olive-tree, they have no way of entering the City of Yahweh, for there are no entrances marked other than with the names of the tribes of Israel.

There are Angels guarding the entrances into the City, like with the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve left the garden.