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The odds of a Shakespearian sonnet

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think that "objective morality" and "absolute morality"
are kind of the same thing, and those are "whatever God
says".

And "God"says whatever someone chooses to interpret him as having said.

Is there any more to it than that?

Agree. All of this talk about objective and absolute morality is part of a religious argument intended to slip God in through the back door.Just keep calling moral values objectively real, as if they exist outside of the heads of moral agents, and if you can get unbelievers to buy into that, you have a foot in that door.

From Wiki:

Argument from objective moral truths

Both theists and non-theists have accepted that the existence of objective moral truths might entail the existence of God. Atheist philosopher J. L. Mackie accepted that, if objective moral truths existed, they would warrant a supernatural explanation. Scottish philosopher W. R. Sorley presented the following argument:

  1. If morality is objective and absolute, God must exist.
  2. Morality is objective and absolute.
  3. Therefore, God must exist.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Agree. All of this talk about objective and absolute morality is part of a religious argument intended to slip God in through the back door.Just keep calling moral values objectively real, as if they exist outside of the heads of moral agents, and if you can get unbelievers to buy into that, you have a foot in that door.

From Wiki:

Argument from objective moral truths

Both theists and non-theists have accepted that the existence of objective moral truths might entail the existence of God. Atheist philosopher J. L. Mackie accepted that, if objective moral truths existed, they would warrant a supernatural explanation. Scottish philosopher W. R. Sorley presented the following argument:

  1. If morality is objective and absolute, God must exist.
  2. Morality is objective and absolute.
  3. Therefore, God must exist.

Just change the is to sint
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Agree. All of this talk about objective and absolute morality is part of a religious argument intended to slip God in through the back door.Just keep calling moral values objectively real, as if they exist outside of the heads of moral agents, and if you can get unbelievers to buy into that, you have a foot in that door.

From Wiki:

Argument from objective moral truths

Both theists and non-theists have accepted that the existence of objective moral truths might entail the existence of God. Atheist philosopher J. L. Mackie accepted that, if objective moral truths existed, they would warrant a supernatural explanation. Scottish philosopher W. R. Sorley presented the following argument:

  1. If morality is objective and absolute, God must exist.
  2. Morality is objective and absolute.
  3. Therefore, God must exist.

Objective, absolute, subjective. Its is just the human interpretation of what is right and what is wrong. Humanity came along well before gods were invented in mans (or woman's) image. Without that morality civilisation wouldn't have got a foothold and look where that got us
 

Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
Ignored and after posting this will put on my ignore
Iist. Hope that satisfies you

Since I am presumably on ignore, you will never know.

Is there anyone actually interested in dealing with my proposal? Do I need to repeat it? Or maybe this is not the site for me after all.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The test I use for truth is to see if there is any falsity in it.
But falsity is the absence of truth, as darkness is the absence of light. You need a clear definition of truth (independent of falsity) before you can recognize falsity, just as you need a clear definition of light (independent of darkness) before you can recognize darkness.

So again I ask you, what definition of truth do you use, if not mine (truth is correspondence with objective reality)?
The test I use for all doctrines, even if I pre-suppose them to be false, is the hypothetical method (assume they're true, see where it leads).
Here we go again! What test that anyone can use will tell us whether a doctrine is 'true' or not?
We cannot yet agree that things without objective existence are necessarily imaginary
Clearly they're not real if they don't have objective existence, so what else can they be but imaginary (or non-existent, or both).
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is a fact that the letters of Paul show that his readers are already familiar with various particulars about Jesus. He does not need to inform them of those particulars.
Paul's biographical details of Jesus would fit in two lines. He was a Jew (parents never referred to), he was of the line of David, he was a player in the Jerusalem religious scene, he had followers, he was at the Last Supper, he was handed over to the Romans, he was crucified (no reason, no charge, no trial, ever mentioned) and buried. Did I leave anything out? Outside of biography, Paul adds that Jesus is Son, Jesus is Lord to Yahweh's God, and Jesus death was not the end of Jesus. Only in Acts, not in his own writing, is it suggested he thought of Jesus as a messiah.
What Paul does is to paint an elaborate supernatural veneer on the story, among other things giving an 'explanation' of why a messianic figure should get killed by the Romans. His explanation of it being a sin atonement sacrifice
Where does Paul explain the crucifixion as an atonement sacrifice?
if we were to look at it as a real Jesus getting crucified contrary to all expectations for a Messiah and Paul desperately trying to make it into something else, it sounds more believable than that the whole thing was made up.
Where does Paul say Jesus is the Messiah? I don't find the titles Savior and Redeemer in any way equivalent to 'messiah'.
a number of passages in Mark are quite accurate portrayals of life as it was in that region at the putative time of Jesus but that was not at all like that when Mark wrote after the destruction of the Temple.
Jesus' crucifixion conventionally dates to 30 or 33 CE. Paul never met Jesus but was dead likely by 60 CE. The Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 CE. Mark was written 75 CE or shortly after. No surprise, then, if the author of Mark were familiar with the Temple era.
the Caligula incident
What was the 'Caligula incident'? Caligula died 41 CE ie before Christianity could be seen as distinct from Judaism, surely? Jesus himself was a circumcised Jew, like Paul.
the upstart crowd pleasing preacher arguing against the self-aggrandizing Shammai Pharisees pushing more and more rules on people and ignoring the humanistic content of the Law.
This Greekness (I hesitate to call it 'humanism', so class-structured was it) was rare in Jerusalem Judaism but had existed in Alexandrian Judaism since later 2nd cent BCE. If you have any evidence that it had any large presence at street level in Jesus' Jerusalem, I'd be interested to hear it.
This idea of early traditions being carried forward is supported by the duplication of various stories in Mark. The two calming the sea episodes and the two feeding the multitudes narratives suggest that the stories were around long enough to split into several versions.
Yes there are hints, including the Gabriel's Vision stone, and I'm inclined to agree, but there's no clincher.
Since Paul knows nothing at all about any of this, these traditions are of independent origin.
Paul states with disarming frankness in Galatians 1:11-12 that everything he tells you about Jesus comes out of his own head, not from anything others told him.
That is, there is another source pointing to a real historical Jesus. Like I said – simplest explanation.
I'm not persuaded. If there was an historical Jesus, he's the Jesus who abuses his mother every time he mentions her (bar John's crucifixion scene), fights with his family, complains that his family and townsfolk don't like him, and perhaps had some visible disfigurement or disability ("Physician, heal thyself'). That's about the strongest I can make it.

(I think the odds on an historical Jesus, a real peg on which the stories were hung, is about 50-50 ─ again there's no clincher.)
 
Last edited:

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Agree. All of this talk about objective and absolute morality is part of a religious argument intended to slip God in through the back door.Just keep calling moral values objectively real, as if they exist outside of the heads of moral agents, and if you can get unbelievers to buy into that, you have a foot in that door.

From Wiki:

Argument from objective moral truths

Both theists and non-theists have accepted that the existence of objective moral truths might entail the existence of God. Atheist philosopher J. L. Mackie accepted that, if objective moral truths existed, they would warrant a supernatural explanation. Scottish philosopher W. R. Sorley presented the following argument:

  1. If morality is objective and absolute, God must exist.
  2. Morality is objective and absolute.
  3. Therefore, God must exist.
Did I miss the part of this thread where someone gave an example of an objective moral truth? Or is that cupboard still utterly bare.

Without an example of an objective moral truth, what are we trying to talk about anyway?

And how could the existence of an OMT demonstrate the existence of a supernatural being? To be objective it would have to exist in reality, in a form in principle examinable, and not merely as a concept in someone's head or in an imagined state like 'spiritual' or 'supernatural' or 'immaterial'.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
So when you say you "don't disagree with those sects about the Bible," what do you mean, exactly? It seems to me that you disagree both on the Bible's status and even what "the Bible" refers to. Where is the agreement you refer to?

Why are we skirting the point? What would your response be if someone asked you, "How does people disagreeing over the Bible validate or invalidate the Bible's teachings?"
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Why are we skirting the point? What would your response be if someone asked you, "How does people disagreeing over the Bible validate or invalidate the Bible's teachings?"
Which teachings are those? This whole tangent started when I pointed out that the Bible is so contradictory and ambiguous that Christians can't even agree on what "the Bible's teachings" are.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I've explained to you my position and you didn't rebut it. You just object to it. That's not the same thing. I discussed unjustified belief and justified belief, equated with first with faith, and noted that by definition, that believed without sufficient evidence is blind.

You apparently don't like having insufficiently evidenced beliefs being called blind. It's a bit like crossing a street with your eyes open and wearing a blindfold. In the first case, you can acquire evidence that the traffic is clear and that crossing will be successful. Your belief that it is safe to cross is justified by evidence.

If you choose to believe that it is safe to cross without looking, your belief is unjustified and blind. Why is it incorrect to you that there are only two kinds of beliefs, justified and unjustfied, and that the latter can be called blind?

That's a pretty simple formulation. Perhaps you could explain why you disagree. What I am used to from you is mere contradiction without explanation.



I accept that. And trust can also be justified by previous experience, or blind and based on nothing but a guess.



I don't know what you are referring to here, but I do not insist that Jesus do anything.



You haven't convinced me that your belief is justified, that is, not blind.

I know that you believe what you do passionately and without doubt, but neither of those helps me decide if the belief is unjustified, which I have indicated is synonymous with religious type faith, which is also synonymous with blind faith, or whether the belief is justified by evidence.

Since I have seen no evidence, you have not produced anything to support your beliefs, and I have first-hand experience with religious faith, I must conclude that your religious fervor is faith based.

If the word blind offends you, I'll stop using it. I'll stick with unjustified belief and faith.

I hear you loud and clear. I don't want to fight over word salad, however, I would ask you this, "When someone tells you, 'I have faith in Billy,' don't you translate that as 'they trust Billy, even when they cannot see Billy'?"

I don't use the word "faith" when I witness the gospel, because people have different concepts of what they word means, and they often associate reasonable faith, "Billy is trustworthy when unseen," with "blind faith" or faith in a nothing. I use the word "trust" rather than "faith" when sharing or "believe", another highly loaded term.

I trust Jesus. I believe I have good reasons to trust Him, actually, a whole pile of reasons. I know you spoke movingly and at length of having faith or trust in certain church folks before you experienced less compelling church folk and left the church--I have had numerous encounters with the risen Christ, Christ's people, and Christ's blessings on my life. I have faith in you to think through the issues, I have faith in my spouse and children to support me emotionally, I have faith in Jesus--faith that produces good works and good fruit.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I hear you loud and clear. I don't want to fight over word salad, however, I would ask you this, "When someone tells you, 'I have faith in Billy,' don't you translate that as 'they trust Billy, even when they cannot see Billy'?"

I don't use the word "faith" when I witness the gospel, because people have different concepts of what they word means, and they often associate reasonable faith, "Billy is trustworthy when unseen," with "blind faith" or faith in a nothing. I use the word "trust" rather than "faith" when sharing or "believe", another highly loaded term.

I trust Jesus. I believe I have good reasons to trust Him, actually, a whole pile of reasons. I know you spoke movingly and at length of having faith or trust in certain church folks before you experienced less compelling church folk and left the church--I have had numerous encounters with the risen Christ, Christ's people, and Christ's blessings on my life. I have faith in you to think through the issues, I have faith in my spouse and children to support me emotionally, I have faith in Jesus--faith that produces good works and good fruit.
The word "faith" has a number of different meanings. The way I see it, most of the uses of the term in the Bible were originally taken to mean "loyalty" (i.e. faithfulness) but were reinterpreted to mean "belief without evidence" more and more as the claims of the Bible were found to be at odds with the evidence.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
But falsity is the absence of truth, as darkness is the absence of light. You need a clear definition of truth (independent of falsity) before you can recognize falsity, just as you need a clear definition of light (independent of darkness) before you can recognize darkness.

So again I ask you, what definition of truth do you use, if not mine (truth is correspondence with objective reality)?

Here we go again! What test that anyone can use will tell us whether a doctrine is 'true' or not?
Clearly they're not real if they don't have objective existence, so what else can they be but imaginary (or non-existent, or both).

I get your definition, what is true "is", but you are now redefining the words "is" and "real" to be "true", a false equivalence.

From a logic standpoint, and I mean classical logic as taught via a framework language, something that is "sometimes" is not a truth statement.

For another example, I would say there is such a thing as true justice, true math and true logic, which you would describe as not having metaphysical existence.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I get your definition, what is true "is", but you are now redefining the words "is" and "real" to be "true", a false equivalence.
I'm simply pointing out that to be real is to have objective existence, to exist in nature / reality / the realm of the physical sciences. Nothing false about that equivalence. The alternative is to say that the imaginary is, of itself, real ─ and it's not.
From a logic standpoint, and I mean classical logic as taught via a framework language, something that is "sometimes" is not a truth statement.
"I sometimes win at chess" is a true statement, given I say it. "The moon sometimes appears to have a reddish tinge" is a true statement by anyone.
For another example, I would say there is such a thing as true justice, true math and true logic, which you would describe as not having metaphysical existence.
I'd say that ─

'true justice' was justice that conformed to whatever definition of justice you and I had agreed on in advance;

'true math' was EITHER mathematics of a kind recognized by the best regarded of our mathematicians, OR, any mathematical operation correctly carried out according to the conventions of that recognized field of mathematics; and

'true logic' was in parallel with 'true math'.

BUT I'm still waiting for your definition of 'truth'. What is it?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
The word "faith" has a number of different meanings. The way I see it, most of the uses of the term in the Bible were originally taken to mean "loyalty" (i.e. faithfulness) but were reinterpreted to mean "belief without evidence" more and more as the claims of the Bible were found to be at odds with the evidence.


And further, somewhat weirdly reinterpreted by some of our friends to mean
"belief with evidence / belief in the evidence", as in, "faith" in science,
this being a negative thing.

Another variant is the "I dont have enough faith to be an atheist" (or "evolutionist" )

That is belief in the evidence provided by no evidence?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I would ask you this, "When someone tells you, 'I have faith in Billy,' don't you translate that as 'they trust Billy, even when they cannot see Billy'?"

We've covered this at length already, and you chose not to address my rebuttal except to repeat yourself without addressing the specific points made. Whenever this happens, the discussion hits an impasse.

If I tell you that I disagree with you due to reason A, and you merely repeat yourself rather than explaining why you reject point A, the discussion has stalled. I feel no need to repeat myself with an identical rebuttal to an identical claim already rebutted.

I've discussed the difference between faith (unjustified belief) and justified belief multiple times,and discussed the relationship of those phrases with concepts like trust and confidence. I don't intend to repeat myself again.

You've not once been willing to discuss such distinction. I have nothing more to say until you do. My former argument still stands, as yet unrebutted.

I know you spoke movingly and at length of having faith or trust in certain church folks before you experienced less compelling church folk and left the church-

No, I did not have faith in church folks then or now.

From a logic standpoint, and I mean classical logic as taught via a framework language, something that is "sometimes" is not a truth statement.

Newborn babies are sometimes girls. Is that not a true statement?
 
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Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
Paul's biographical details of Jesus would fit in two lines. He was a Jew (parents never referred to), he was of the line of David, he was a player in the Jerusalem religious scene, he had followers, he was at the Last Supper, he was handed over to the Romans, he was crucified (no reason, no charge, no trial, ever mentioned) and buried. Did I leave anything out? Outside of biography, Paul adds that Jesus is Son, Jesus is Lord to Yahweh's God, and Jesus death was not the end of Jesus. Only in Acts, not in his own writing, is it suggested he thought of Jesus as a messiah.

The point is not what Paul said about the life of Jesus. The point is that everyone Paul wrote to already knew something about someone named Jesus, that he was some kind of religious figure, maybe was called the Son of God, that he was crucified and was said to have risen from the dead, although not everybody bought that one.

More below about ‘messiah’. In the meantime note that Paul points out that Jesus was “made of the seed of David” (Romans 1:3),a messianic requirement.

Where does Paul explain the crucifixion as an atonement sacrifice?

1 Corinthians 5
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 15
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Romans 3
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

2 Corinthians 5
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

For a more extensive treatment of the theme see: Romans 4:24-25, Romans 5:1-21

A notable verse from that section is:
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Where does Paul say Jesus is the Messiah? I don't find the titles Savior and Redeemer in any way equivalent to 'messiah'.

The word ‘Christ’ used in the NT is the transliteration of the Greek Christos which means ‘anointed’. This is the equivalent of Messiah, or mashiyach, the transliteration of the Hebrew word for anointed. Christ means Messiah.

In the Pauline epistles generally considered genuine (1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 Corinthians, Philippians, Philemon, 2 Corinthians, Romans) the word ‘Christ’ is used 264 times in reference to Jesus. If all the works in the ‘Pauline Epistle’ category are included, the total is 376. See here

Jesus' crucifixion conventionally dates to 30 or 33 CE. Paul never met Jesus but was dead likely by 60 CE. The Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 CE. Mark was written 75 CE or shortly after. No surprise, then, if the author of Mark were familiar with the Temple era.

What was the 'Caligula incident'? Caligula died 41 CE ie before Christianity could be seen as distinct from Judaism, surely? Jesus himself was a circumcised Jew, like Paul.

Not just the Temple era but the era before Caligula’s order in 40 AD to have a statue of himself erected in the Temple in Jerusalem. Before that there was relative peace between the Jews and the Romans. Later the idea of a religious figure drawing crowds of thousands wherever he went without Roman interference would have been less than credible. It does not matter whether those crowds really existed. The fact that Mark portrayed it that way suggests that this was a tradition from an earlier time. The arguments with the Pharisees over just how strictly literal the Law was to be followed and the relevance of the Oral Torah would have been of no importance to those Christians who were contemporary with Mark. But to facilitate his program of making the Jesus in his story a real living man of action, as opposed to Paul’s ghostlike figure, Mark appears to have incorporated early traditions about Jesus. Mark would not invent stories of such little interest to his readers. But if they were genuine old traditions they would serve well in supporting Mark’s vision of Jesus as a real somebody. And of course, Mark places the whole story in the tenure of Pontius Pilate.

This Greekness (I hesitate to call it 'humanism', so class-structured was it) was rare in Jerusalem Judaism but had existed in Alexandrian Judaism since later 2nd cent BCE. If you have any evidence that it had any large presence at street level in Jesus' Jerusalem, I'd be interested to hear it.

I was not referring to any Greek humanist tradition but to the Jewish tradition found in the prophets of valuing human values over slavish adherence to ritual. Examples…

Isaiah begins with exactly that thought.

Isaiah 1:13
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Instead…

Isaiah 1:17
Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Yes there are hints, including the Gabriel's Vision stone, and I'm inclined to agree, but there's no clincher.

I am not terribly impressed by the Gabriel Stone, but that is another topic.

I never said this was a clincher, only that the material I presented is suggestive of an actual historic Jesus, but not a magical one. Specifically, that this is the simplest explanation.

Paul states with disarming frankness in Galatians 1:11-12 that everything he tells you about Jesus comes out of his own head, not from anything others told him.

Paul’s claim was that Jesus told him all sorts of things he never told to the Apostles. Although what you said is probably the case.

I'm not persuaded. If there was an historical Jesus, he's the Jesus who abuses his mother every time he mentions her (bar John's crucifixion scene), fights with his family, complains that his family and townsfolk don't like him, and perhaps had some visible disfigurement or disability ("Physician, heal thyself'). That's about the strongest I can make it.

(I think the odds on an historical Jesus, a real peg on which the stories were hung, is about 50-50 ─ again there's no clincher.)

I am not putting odds on anything. Only that my proposal is the simplest explanation.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
The point is not what Paul said about the life of Jesus. The point is that everyone Paul wrote to already knew something about someone named Jesus, that he was some kind of religious figure, maybe was called the Son of God, that he was crucified and was said to have risen from the dead, although not everybody bought that one.

More below about ‘messiah’. In the meantime note that Paul points out that Jesus was “made of the seed of David” (Romans 1:3),a messianic requirement.



1 Corinthians 5
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 15
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Romans 3
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

2 Corinthians 5
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

For a more extensive treatment of the theme see: Romans 4:24-25, Romans 5:1-21

A notable verse from that section is:
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.



The word ‘Christ’ used in the NT is the transliteration of the Greek Christos which means ‘anointed’. This is the equivalent of Messiah, or mashiyach, the transliteration of the Hebrew word for anointed. Christ means Messiah.

In the Pauline epistles generally considered genuine (1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 Corinthians, Philippians, Philemon, 2 Corinthians, Romans) the word ‘Christ’ is used 264 times in reference to Jesus. If all the works in the ‘Pauline Epistle’ category are included, the total is 376. See here



Not just the Temple era but the era before Caligula’s order in 40 AD to have a statue of himself erected in the Temple in Jerusalem. Before that there was relative peace between the Jews and the Romans. Later the idea of a religious figure drawing crowds of thousands wherever he went without Roman interference would have been less than credible. It does not matter whether those crowds really existed. The fact that Mark portrayed it that way suggests that this was a tradition from an earlier time. The arguments with the Pharisees over just how strictly literal the Law was to be followed and the relevance of the Oral Torah would have been of no importance to those Christians who were contemporary with Mark. But to facilitate his program of making the Jesus in his story a real living man of action, as opposed to Paul’s ghostlike figure, Mark appears to have incorporated early traditions about Jesus. Mark would not invent stories of such little interest to his readers. But if they were genuine old traditions they would serve well in supporting Mark’s vision of Jesus as a real somebody. And of course, Mark places the whole story in the tenure of Pontius Pilate.



I was not referring to any Greek humanist tradition but to the Jewish tradition found in the prophets of valuing human values over slavish adherence to ritual. Examples…

Isaiah begins with exactly that thought.

Isaiah 1:13
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Instead…

Isaiah 1:17
Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.



I am not terribly impressed by the Gabriel Stone, but that is another topic.

I never said this was a clincher, only that the material I presented is suggestive of an actual historic Jesus, but not a magical one. Specifically, that this is the simplest explanation.



Paul’s claim was that Jesus told him all sorts of things he never told to the Apostles. Although what you said is probably the case.



I am not putting odds on anything. Only that my proposal is the simplest explanation.


My bet is, this is the most overdiscussed topuc, ever.

And it will never get anywhere.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The point is not what Paul said about the life of Jesus. The point is that everyone Paul wrote to already knew something about someone named Jesus, that he was some kind of religious figure, maybe was called the Son of God, that he was crucified and was said to have risen from the dead, although not everybody bought that one.

More below about ‘messiah’. In the meantime note that Paul points out that Jesus was “made of the seed of David” (Romans 1:3),a messianic requirement.



1 Corinthians 5
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 15
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Romans 3
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

2 Corinthians 5
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

For a more extensive treatment of the theme see: Romans 4:24-25, Romans 5:1-21

A notable verse from that section is:
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.



The word ‘Christ’ used in the NT is the transliteration of the Greek Christos which means ‘anointed’. This is the equivalent of Messiah, or mashiyach, the transliteration of the Hebrew word for anointed. Christ means Messiah.

In the Pauline epistles generally considered genuine (1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 Corinthians, Philippians, Philemon, 2 Corinthians, Romans) the word ‘Christ’ is used 264 times in reference to Jesus. If all the works in the ‘Pauline Epistle’ category are included, the total is 376. See here



Not just the Temple era but the era before Caligula’s order in 40 AD to have a statue of himself erected in the Temple in Jerusalem. Before that there was relative peace between the Jews and the Romans. Later the idea of a religious figure drawing crowds of thousands wherever he went without Roman interference would have been less than credible. It does not matter whether those crowds really existed. The fact that Mark portrayed it that way suggests that this was a tradition from an earlier time. The arguments with the Pharisees over just how strictly literal the Law was to be followed and the relevance of the Oral Torah would have been of no importance to those Christians who were contemporary with Mark. But to facilitate his program of making the Jesus in his story a real living man of action, as opposed to Paul’s ghostlike figure, Mark appears to have incorporated early traditions about Jesus. Mark would not invent stories of such little interest to his readers. But if they were genuine old traditions they would serve well in supporting Mark’s vision of Jesus as a real somebody. And of course, Mark places the whole story in the tenure of Pontius Pilate.



I was not referring to any Greek humanist tradition but to the Jewish tradition found in the prophets of valuing human values over slavish adherence to ritual. Examples…

Isaiah begins with exactly that thought.

Isaiah 1:13
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Instead…

Isaiah 1:17
Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.



I am not terribly impressed by the Gabriel Stone, but that is another topic.

I never said this was a clincher, only that the material I presented is suggestive of an actual historic Jesus, but not a magical one. Specifically, that this is the simplest explanation.



Paul’s claim was that Jesus told him all sorts of things he never told to the Apostles. Although what you said is probably the case.



I am not putting odds on anything. Only that my proposal is the simplest explanation.
Good presentation. Agree.
 
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