The occult

[sojourner]

I never said free masonary is part and parcel of alchemy

and yet you say...

but to deny the relationship between martinism, hermeticism, alchemy and masonary is just plain ignorant

and he wonders why I've:

invoked the "cone of silence"

also known as

"I know more than you, but I'm not telling, nu nu nu nu na"

and he claims:

Ironically of course I couldnt give a figgy pudding about masons....
I think they are wrong lol

and yet he presents written work of masons as "truth."

His avatar is "cheese."
So are his posts here.
Don't get me wrong;
I like cheese...
in it's proper context.
But we all know that "cheese" and "whiz" = "cheap, imitation food product."
I'd rather enjoy the real deal.

BTW: Not certain about the authenticity or reliability of the information presented in this link: Lodgical: York Rite Alchemy. It doesn't appear to be official, either in its detail or its presentation.

 

[Mr Cheese]

ah pretend you're all knowing but actually answer nothing...

Yawn

Ok I guess actual masons arent official

yes ae waite was a faker also....

a big hand for taking my words out of context, and actually saying nothing, when you said you werent going to say anything....

I've presented facts and evidence, all you've done is say "cause I say so"

thats nice......

the author is a master mason, clearly something you are not

you clearly have no clue

do you even know what alchemy, martinism and hermeticism are?

I bet you dont know the "relationship" between Islam, Rosicrucianism and freemasonary either...
but I'll never know, as you seek to pretend you know it all, by refusing to say anything....

summa scientia nihil scire, in your case, how apt!

 

[EtuMalku]

what is the discussion here?

 

[Mr Cheese]

what is the discussion here?

general occult

which devolved into free masonary

in which I asserted free masonary is a form of hermeticism, what with its ties to alchemy, kabbalah etc.....

Apparently it isnt...


:sad:I learn something new every day

 

[sojourner]

ah pretend you're all knowing but actually answer nothing...

Yawn

Ok I guess actual masons arent official

yes ae waite was a faker also....

a big hand for taking my words out of context, and actually saying nothing, when you said you werent going to say anything....

I've presented facts and evidence, all you've done is say "cause I say so"

thats nice......

the author is a master mason, clearly something you are not

you clearly have no clue

do you even know what alchemy, martinism and hermeticism are?

I bet you dont know the "relationship" between Islam, Rosicrucianism and freemasonary either...
but I'll never know, as you seek to pretend you know it all, by refusing to say anything....

summa scientia nihil scire, in your case, how apt!

:grill:
Mmmm.... Cheese Whiz....... ::licks lips in anticipation::

 

[sojourner]

"The Occult" has been created largely by conservative Christians, who have taken all sorts of wisdom disciplines and lumped them all together into one entity called "The Occult." Then they labeled the entity as "evil."

I don't think it's evil, but I don't think it's any more "wise" than any other system of esoteric understanding (of which Christian theology may be considered part). I don't think occult understanding gets one any closer to God than any other system of understanding. In the end, we all just end up talking about God, when we should be living into God.

 

[Mr Cheese]

"The Occult" has been created largely by conservative Christians, who have taken all sorts of wisdom disciplines and lumped them all together into one entity called "The Occult." Then they labeled the entity as "evil."

I don't think it's evil, but I don't think it's any more "wise" than any other system of esoteric understanding (of which Christian theology may be considered part). I don't think occult understanding gets one any closer to God than any other system of understanding. In the end, we all just end up talking about God, when we should be living into God.

I disagree

the term in modern use comes largely from the 18th - 19th century movement....
the likes of Elias Levi and to an extent papus, the "re-birth of Rosicrucians" the "creation" of free masonary (which is of course tied in with the revival of rosicrucianism and martinism , arguably, largely in name only when it comes to the rosicrucians) and the likes of the Golden dawn, blavatsky, Steiner, Heindel et al....

The tem was not "created by conservative christians" at all, it was a "badge" worn by the 18-19th century people to bolster their egos. Bearing in mind back then initiates were fed deliberate lies, as was the way of initiation back then... which is why Crowley's work is full of deliberate lies....Crowley also claimed to be Levi re-incarnated

Other key figures from an earlier age of course include the likes of Dee and Agrippa.

This movement actually differs from ancient alchemy which is of course largely Islamic. Which was later on changed by the original free masons (if they existed) and the original rosicrucians (if they existed) who came to light and went public during the protestant reformation...most notably the Rosicrucians with their manifestos, of which one states that the pope is the Anti Christ.
Alchemy of course, is arguably operatic Hermeticism...but anyway
You know all this already..... right?:clap:sad:

Of course the occult is generally associated with magic, which depsite your inferrance is different to mysticism. But again, you already knew that didn't you.....

 

[sojourner]

I disagree

I'd be disappointed if you didn't. It would be so unlike you here.

Now, you're going to spout off how much you "know" about the subject (because you obviously know so much more than the rest of us insignificant worms).

Then, you'll ridicule the rest of us for being "wrong" and "misinformed," which you will imply is some sort of a character flaw.

the term in modern use comes largely from the 18th - 19th century movement....
the likes of Elias Levi and to an extent papus, the "re-birth of Rosicrucians" the "creation" of free masonary (which is of course tied in with the revival of rosicrucianism and martinism , arguably, largely in name only when it comes to the rosicrucians) and the likes of the Golden dawn, blavatsky, Steiner, Heindel et al....

The tem was not "created by conservative christians" at all, it was a "badge" worn by the 18-19th century people to bolster their egos. Bearing in mind back then initiates were fed deliberate lies, as was the way of initiation back then... which is why Crowley's work is full of deliberate lies....Crowley also claimed to be Levi re-incarnated

Other key figures from an earlier age of course include the likes of Dee and Agrippa.

This movement actually differs from ancient alchemy which is of course largely Islamic. Which was later on changed by the original free masons (if they existed) and the original rosicrucians (if they existed) who came to light and went public during the protestant reformation...most notably the Rosicrucians with their manifestos, of which one states that the pope is the Anti Christ.
Alchemy of course, is arguably operatic Hermeticism...but anyway
You know all this already..... right?:clap:sad:

Of course the occult is generally associated with magic, which depsite your inferrance is different to mysticism. But again, you already knew that didn't you.....

Cheese Whiz is sooooo boring and predictable.
Of course, it's mostly non-nutrition.

Did you begin this thread to "impress" us with your "boundless knowledge" of the subject?

 

[sojourner]

So the occult, what does this word conjure up when you think of it?

I answered that in my next-to-last post.

Do you think it involves satan?

What do you mean by "involve?"
Xy "involves" Satan, since the character is dealt with in the Bible.
Satanism is "occultic," but not involved in all aspects of occult practices.

IS the occult evil?

Depends on what you mean by "the Occult." As far as I'm aware, "The Occult" is a rather meaningless term these days, lumping all kinds of wisdom and mystic practices under its one loose umbrella.
Some occultic practices are evil. Some are not.

WHat do you think of magic?

Not within the realm of my cognitive paradigm of the spiritual.

Are wiccans all silly hot topic wearers or serious religious people?

Probably there are both kinds, just as there are with any group of people.

Are free masons secretly runnign the world through pentagrams and cups of tea?

A moot question, as I've shown.

Do you think there is an alternative to the occult?

Alternative in what sense?

What do you think of Alchemy?

OK as an allegorical system, but worthless as a science.

Are tarot cards evil?

Not inherently, just as guns are not inherently evil.

You asked.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I'd be disappointed if you didn't. It would be so unlike you here.

Now, you're going to spout off how much you "know" about the subject (because you obviously know so much more than the rest of us insignificant worms).

You're the one making claims and refusing to back them up....
and name calling, not I.....

I have no need to call you names

and that was only my view point, which was far more flushed out than yours.
But once again only my view point.

If you are threatend by it..well I am sorry...

You refuse to share your "expert knowledge"; I have no such qualms spouting...
You have claimed already to know about:

free masonary
alchemy
hermeticism
etc.

yet refuse to discuss your opinions and views
Kinda like saying I have read "Peter Rabbit" but I have no idea who Beatrix potter is.


While I agree conservative Christians have placed a label on things...
frankly I find that supposition to be exteremly simplistic. Which is why I detailed a further insight.

Feel free to call me more names, frankly I think it only indicates that I am correct in my assessment that you simply are blowing hot air. I would love to be incorrect however, as a serious discussion wuld be refreshing.... but you prefer the cone of silence and stating you know it, but wont tell nu nu nu nu nah

the alchemical image of the Rebis, holding the symbols of freemasonary in "his" hands... demonstrating a clear connection between alchemy and free masonary; once again. Note the 7 planets, which form the 7 stages of alchemy, VITRIOL, which has already been discussed is a part and parcel of the masonic Scottish rite.

Here we see the red king and the white queen of the chemical wedding
Note they too participate in the 7 directions, which one can see in their hands

this one of course needs no explanation, it is a picture of an obscure version of the mickey mouse adventure "Steam boat willie"

 

[sojourner]

Yes, there is a connection -- a "common root" between Martinism, the Rose Cross, alchemy and freemasonry. However, freemasonry, as it has been manifested -- at least in the blue lodge, neither embraces nor espouses the entirety of the tenets of the Rose Cross. Some of it is preserved in one of the degrees of the Scottish Rite. But the philosophy does not lie at the foundation of what freemasonry is, as a unique allegorical system. Neither does it embrace the tenets of Martinism, on the whole, other than as a small part of the allegorical construct.

Freemasons do not indulge in alchemy, either as a practice, or as a system of understanding, although some of the esoteric meanings are alluded to in some of the degree work, especially in some of the attendant bodies.

I'm not threatened. But I know what can and cannot be divulged. I also am aware that some of the connections you draw from the history of the beginnings of these movements are exaggerated, and that freemasonry, as you present it here, is not fairly represented. The website you cited earlier does not look like an official masonic web site. Therefore, we can only assume that the information provided is either 1) inaccurate, or 2) incomplete.

Some knowledge is dangerous, because it leads to inaccurate conclusions. Since your posts in other threads are tighter, it leads me to wonder why this one seems so loosey-goosey. Since I'm not a member of either the Scottish Rite or the York Rite, I can't speak with any authority about those bodies. All I know is what little I've been told by members of those bodies. But I do know that no such stuff as you mention here is put forth in the blue lodge in any detail or with the level of creedence that you seem to assert here.

That being said, while its roots may be shared with occultic practices or systems of belief, freemasonry does not share an operative goal with any occultic practice. therefore, I really don't see how it could be considered to be part of the occult.

 

[Mr Cheese]

That being said, while its roots may be shared with occultic practices or systems of belief, freemasonry does not share an operative goal with any occultic practice. therefore, I really don't see how it could be considered to be part of the occult.

the operative goal is the great work....for most (not all) occult "works"

I fail to see how this differs from free masonary....

but thank you!

 

[sojourner]

Please elucidate what you feel the "great work" is. I have an idea what you may be thinking, and I think I may have misunderstood your point in the beginning.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Magnum Opus (great work)

the unification of the divine with the mundane....
bringing the two together...

through healing what is broken (due to the fall)

wiki isnt all that great on this subject

...

 

[sojourner]

Magnum Opus (great work)

the unification of the divine with the mundane....
bringing the two together...

through healing what is broken (due to the fall)

wiki isnt all that great on this subject

...

OK. I see, but that's not what I meant. Of course we all desire reconciliation with the Divine. Even Xy is on that page. What I meant was the specific system by which that reconciliation is understood and reached. As I understand them, most occult practices seek to make Divine power available to the practitioner through magical or similar means. At least for the blue lodge, which is the foundation of all Masonic activity, understanding is the goal -- not the actual use of any spiritual power. That's the difference.

 

[Mr Cheese]

OK. I see, but that's not what I meant. Of course we all desire reconciliation with the Divine. Even Xy is on that page. What I meant was the specific system by which that reconciliation is understood and reached. As I understand them, most occult practices seek to make Divine power available to the practitioner through magical or similar means. At least for the blue lodge, which is the foundation of all Masonic activity, understanding is the goal -- not the actual use of any spiritual power. That's the difference.

not what I meant

not making it available....

so that there is only the divine, and all is united...

to return to eden...

 

[sojourner]

not what I meant

not making it available....

so that there is only the divine, and all is united...

to return to eden...

Ok. Now it's making sense. All righty then. That certainly isn't the great work of blue lodge freemasonry. As I said, it may be alluded to in some of the appendant bodies. But as it stands, the blue lodge, while sharing a common heritage, is not occultic, by your definition in these recent posts, since it does not seek to return humanity to a "pre-fall" divine state of being.

 

[blackout]

To me secret rituals and rites and yes... even handshakes are occultic in nature.
(especially when they are exchanged in plain view with a wink and a nod)
Oathed/CONDITIONAL secrecy in a closed group that practices rites and rituals
(whatever their nature)
easily fits my collective definition of "occultic".

But my definition of what is "Occultic" is broader than most.
Madison Ave. is Occultic in nature.
Our money is Occultic in nature.
And many other things....

Everyone succombs to Occultism in one form or another each and every day.
The more openly hidden an occultism is, the harder it is to "dis-spell".

 

[Willamena]

So the occult, what does this word conjure up when you think of it?
Do you think it involves satan?
IS the occult evil?
WHat do you think of magic?
Do you think there is an alternative to the occult?
Are tarot cards evil?
Discuss..

Occult is what is hidden by the mask.
It involves Satan in that Satan is a mask, a symbolic one.
It is evil in that what is hidden is demonized.
Magic is the manipulation of symbols to get things accomplished by apparently hidden forces. I think it's neat. We all do it everyday, willingly and wilfully.
An alternative to what is hidden by the mask might be what is imagined to be behind the mask. (Alternately, they might be the same thing.)
Tarot cards, like all things, are as evil as people attribute them to be.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Occult is what is hidden by the mask.
It involves Satan in that Satan is a mask, a symbolic one.
It is evil in that what is hidden is demonized.
Magic is the manipulation of symbols to get things accomplished by apparently hidden forces. I think it's neat. We all do it everyday, willingly and wilfully.
An alternative to what is hidden by the mask might be what is imagined to be behind the mask. (Alternately, they might be the same thing.)
Tarot cards, like all things, are as evil as people attribute them to be.

Occult is a nonsensical word really....

the biggest secret, is that nothing is a secret...

.......

what on earth are you saying when you mention satan?