The Myth of Leviathon.

[omega2xx]

Wow, you reiterate my view that fiction can teach a lesson, then pretend that that isn't what I said, and then pretend that you are correcting me when you are just repeating what I said.

Me telling what I believe based on what the Bible says, is me disagreeing with you, not trying to correct you.

However, I like that you compare Leviathan to a dinosaur. Bill Cooper the creationist has made a good case that when early literature speaks of "dragons" it is really speaking of dinosaurs.

He is not the only one. Many good theologians have made the same comparison. Leviathan was some kind of a creature, a dino is as good a guess as any.

Bill Cooper claims the first settlers of Ireland had to exterminate t-Rex and teradactyls before they could settle there.

Take Will Rogers advice---Don't believe anything you read and only half of what you see.

But can you forget whether there was a literal Leviathan, and get to the deeper meaning of why he is mentioned in book of Job?

That's right. Why do you think he is mentioned?

 

[Sleeppy]

The amazing name Leviathan: meaning and etymology

 

[crossfire]

Set slaying Apep in the duat: (Nightly occurrence)

 

[Brian Schuh]

Me telling what I believe based on what the Bible says, is me disagreeing with you, not trying to correct you.



He is not the only one. Many good theologians have made the same comparison. Leviathan was some kind of a creature, a dino is as good a guess as any.



Take Will Rogers advice---Don't believe anything you read and only half of what you see.




That's right. Why do you think he is mentioned?

So when I said that fiction can teach valuable lessons, then you say, "I disagree! Fiction can teach valuable lessons! Look at Aesop's Fables!"

How is that a disagreement?

 

[omega2xx]

So when I said that fiction can teach valuable lessons, then you say, "I disagree! Fiction can teach valuable lessons! Look at Aesop's Fables!"

How is that a disagreement?

I many have gotten my tongue in my eye teeth and couldn't see what I was saying.

 

[Ingledsva]

The amazing name Leviathan: meaning and etymology

Some of that was interesting - however - the majority of it jumps through hoops to reach conclusions that are not there.

And their "conclusion" is ridiculous. Modern mumbo-jumbo. They say ---

"Leviathan is the Joiner and represents the faculty of the cognitive brain that impels humans to put one and one together: logic thought. It feeds the total body of knowledge we possess, and personifies the ultimate folly of the conviction that humankind can reason itself out of the grip of mortality."

All of these people were ancient astronomer/astrologers. Their Gods are related to the Sun, Moon, planets, etc, that they could see.

A Sun God and his Host of heaven.

Ancient Serpents such as this, - normally represent the Milky Way, - which looks like a giant serpent eating it's tail.

Since YHVH and the others are SUN Gods in their SOLAR Chariots/Egyptian boats, etc., crossing the sky, - then it makes sense to morph the Milky way which appears at night, - as the serpent that has to be conquered in the waters of space, - to allow the Sun Chariot/Boat to appear again at daybreak. It is also associated with crossing at death. Overcoming the Serpent?

In the two verses I listed, they appear to be utilizing the known myth, calling a powerful Seafaring people - a sea monster that causes their ships trouble.

*

 

[crossfire]

Some of that was interesting - however - the majority of it jumps through hoops to reach conclusions that are not there.

And their "conclusion" is ridiculous. Modern mumbo-jumbo. They say ---

"Leviathan is the Joiner and represents the faculty of the cognitive brain that impels humans to put one and one together: logic thought. It feeds the total body of knowledge we possess, and personifies the ultimate folly of the conviction that humankind can reason itself out of the grip of mortality."

All of these people were ancient astronomer/astrologers. Their Gods are related to the Sun, Moon, planets, etc, that they could see.

A Sun God and his Host of heaven.

Ancient Serpents such as this, - normally represent the Milky Way, - which looks like a giant serpent eating it's tail.

Since YHVH and the others are SUN Gods in their SOLAR Chariots/Egyptian boats, etc., crossing the sky, - then it makes sense to morph the Milky way which appears at night, - as the serpent that has to be conquered in the waters of space, - to allow the Sun Chariot/Boat to appear again at daybreak. It is also associated with crossing at death. Overcoming the Serpent?

In the two verses I listed, they appear to be utilizing the known myth, calling a powerful Seafaring people - a sea monster that causes their ships trouble.

*

Indeed, Apep was slain towards the end of the journey through the duat--not long before sunrise! (Makes perfect sense!)

 

[Sleeppy]

Some of that was interesting - however - the majority of it jumps through hoops to reach conclusions that are not there.

And their "conclusion" is ridiculous. Modern mumbo-jumbo. They say ---

"Leviathan is the Joiner and represents the faculty of the cognitive brain that impels humans to put one and one together: logic thought. It feeds the total body of knowledge we possess, and personifies the ultimate folly of the conviction that humankind can reason itself out of the grip of mortality."

All of these people were ancient astronomer/astrologers. Their Gods are related to the Sun, Moon, planets, etc, that they could see.

A Sun God and his Host of heaven.

Ancient Serpents such as this, - normally represent the Milky Way, - which looks like a giant serpent eating it's tail.

Since YHVH and the others are SUN Gods in their SOLAR Chariots/Egyptian boats, etc., crossing the sky, - then it makes sense to morph the Milky way which appears at night, - as the serpent that has to be conquered in the waters of space, - to allow the Sun Chariot/Boat to appear again at daybreak. It is also associated with crossing at death. Overcoming the Serpent?

In the two verses I listed, they appear to be utilizing the known myth, calling a powerful Seafaring people - a sea monster that causes their ships trouble.

*

Both explanations seem reasonable.

The Cosmic serpent explanation however does not consider the idea that Leviathan had multiple heads that were crushed, or that he became a food source.

-- The reason for defeating the Cosmic serpent, i.e. safe or unimpeded voyage, doesn't align.

 

[Kapalika]

Leviathan = Tiamat
YHVH = Marduk ?

I think so.

Wouldn't that make Leviathan the creator of YHVH then?

Interesting, could you elaborate more on this? I'm not familar with Tiamat or Marduk but it would make sense that Leviathan created Yahweh, it could be why Leviathan was the only thing he ever feared.

I'm sorry, it was supposed to breath fire. Anything big and scaly that breathes fire is a dragon. And the proper spelling is Leviathan. An A, not an O.

Wait, where is it claimed that Leviathan breathes fire to me?

Some of that was interesting - however - the majority of it jumps through hoops to reach conclusions that are not there.

And their "conclusion" is ridiculous. Modern mumbo-jumbo. They say ---

"Leviathan is the Joiner and represents the faculty of the cognitive brain that impels humans to put one and one together: logic thought. It feeds the total body of knowledge we possess, and personifies the ultimate folly of the conviction that humankind can reason itself out of the grip of mortality."

All of these people were ancient astronomer/astrologers. Their Gods are related to the Sun, Moon, planets, etc, that they could see.

A Sun God and his Host of heaven.

Ancient Serpents such as this, - normally represent the Milky Way, - which looks like a giant serpent eating it's tail.

Since YHVH and the others are SUN Gods in their SOLAR Chariots/Egyptian boats, etc., crossing the sky, - then it makes sense to morph the Milky way which appears at night, - as the serpent that has to be conquered in the waters of space, - to allow the Sun Chariot/Boat to appear again at daybreak. It is also associated with crossing at death. Overcoming the Serpent?

In the two verses I listed, they appear to be utilizing the known myth, calling a powerful Seafaring people - a sea monster that causes their ships trouble.

*

I'm not sure how that horizon was edited but that isn't how the milky way looks. If I had to guess it was some kind of combination of a lot of the sky, like a time lapse but not really. At any one time the milky way looks like one long bar across the sky.

 

[Nietzsche]

Wait, where is it claimed that Leviathan breathes fire to me?

Job 41:19

 

[Sleeppy]

Some of that was interesting - however - the majority of it jumps through hoops to reach conclusions that are not there.

And their "conclusion" is ridiculous. Modern mumbo-jumbo. They say ---

"Leviathan is the Joiner and represents the faculty of the cognitive brain that impels humans to put one and one together: logic thought. It feeds the total body of knowledge we possess, and personifies the ultimate folly of the conviction that humankind can reason itself out of the grip of mortality."

All of these people were ancient astronomer/astrologers. Their Gods are related to the Sun, Moon, planets, etc, that they could see.

A Sun God and his Host of heaven.

Ancient Serpents such as this, - normally represent the Milky Way, - which looks like a giant serpent eating it's tail.

Since YHVH and the others are SUN Gods in their SOLAR Chariots/Egyptian boats, etc., crossing the sky, - then it makes sense to morph the Milky way which appears at night, - as the serpent that has to be conquered in the waters of space, - to allow the Sun Chariot/Boat to appear again at daybreak. It is also associated with crossing at death. Overcoming the Serpent?

In the two verses I listed, they appear to be utilizing the known myth, calling a powerful Seafaring people - a sea monster that causes their ships trouble.

*

But then again, the "heads" may just refer to these parallel leviathans, within a collective consciousness.

 

[crossfire]

Interesting, could you elaborate more on this? I'm not familar with Tiamat or Marduk but it would make sense that Leviathan created Yahweh, it could be why Leviathan was the only thing he ever feared.

Ego and super-ego arises from id, no? It would seem that Yahweh is taking up the superego function of controlling the id's (leviathan's) aggressive and sexual functions via castration, etc.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My main point was that you have no evidence Leviathon is a myth. It is mentioned in the book of Job and it was not a sea creature. It description sound a lot like a dino.

Your "main point" demonstrates all the discernment of a paper plate.

As @Ingledsva noted (without offering a source) ...

The name לִוְיָתָן is a derivation from the root לוה lvh "to twine; to join", with an adjectival suffix ן-, with a literal meaning of "wreathed, twisted in folds".[2] Both the name and the mythological figure are a direct continuation of the Ugaritic sea monster Lôtān, one of the servants of the sea god Yammu defeated by Hadad in the Baal Cycle.[3][4] The Ugaritic account has gaps, making it unclear whether some phrases describe him or other monsters at Yammu's disposal such as Tunannu (the Biblical Tannin).[5] Most scholars agree on describing Lôtān as "the fugitive serpent" (bṯn brḥ)[4] but he may or may not be "the wriggling serpent" (bṯn ʿqltn) or "the mighty one with seven heads" (šlyṭ d.šbʿt rašm).[6] His role seems to have been prefigured by the earlier serpent Têmtum whose death at the hands Hadad is depicted in Syrian seals of the 18th–16th century bce.[6]

Sea serpents feature prominently in the mythology of the Ancient Near East.[7] They are attested by the 3rd millennium bce in Sumerian iconography depicting the god Ninurta overcoming a seven-headed serpent. It was common for Near Eastern religions to include a Chaoskampf: a cosmic battle between a sea monster representing the forces of chaos and a creator god or culture hero who imposes order by force.[8] The Babylonian creation myth describes Marduk's defeat of the serpent goddess Tiamat, whose body was used to create the heavens and the earth.[9]

- Wikipedia - Leviathan: Etymology and origins​

The entire entry is wort reading.

 

[omega2xx]

Your "main point" demonstrates all the discernment of a paper plate.

Wht a clever statement. Let me give you a better one---A pper plate is better than no plate at all.

As @Ingledsva noted (without offering a source) ...

The name לִוְיָתָן is a derivation from the root לוה lvh "to twine; to join", with an adjectival suffix ן-, with a literal meaning of "wreathed, twisted in folds".[2] Both the name and the mythological figure are a direct continuation of the Ugaritic sea monster Lôtān, one of the servants of the sea god Yammu defeated by Hadad in the Baal Cycle.[3][4] The Ugaritic account has gaps, making it unclear whether some phrases describe him or other monsters at Yammu's disposal such as Tunannu (the Biblical Tannin).[5] Most scholars agree on describing Lôtān as "the fugitive serpent" (bṯn brḥ)[4] but he may or may not be "the wriggling serpent" (bṯn ʿqltn) or "the mighty one with seven heads" (šlyṭ d.šbʿt rašm).[6] His role seems to have been prefigured by the earlier serpent Têmtum whose death at the hands Hadad is depicted in Syrian seals of the 18th–16th century bce.[6]

Sea serpents feature prominently in the mythology of the Ancient Near East.[7] They are attested by the 3rd millennium bce in Sumerian iconography depicting the god Ninurta overcoming a seven-headed serpent. It was common for Near Eastern religions to include a Chaoskampf: a cosmic battle between a sea monster representing the forces of chaos and a creator god or culture hero who imposes order by force.[8] The Babylonian creation myth describes Marduk's defeat of the serpent goddess Tiamat, whose body was used to create the heavens and the earth.[9]

- Wikipedia - Leviathan: Etymology and origins​

The entire entry is wort reading.[/QUOTE]

Not for me.


Leviathan literally means a large aquatic animal. IMO the description in Job sounds a lot like a dino.

Many consider the book of Job to be the oldest book in the Bible. So any myth about sea serpents probably have their origin in the book of Job, not the other way around.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Wht a clever statement. Let me give you a better one---A pper plate is better than no plate at all.

Brilliant.

Not for me.

I completely agree.

Many consider the book of Job to be the oldest book in the Bible. So any myth about sea serpents probably have their origin in the book of Job, not the other way around.

Also from Wikipedia:

Ascribed by Rabbinic tradition to Moses, it is generally agreed by scholars that the book comes from the period between the 7th and 4th centuries BCE, with the 6th century BCE as the most likely date for a variety of reasons.[17] The anonymous author was almost certainly an Israelite, although he has set his story outside Israel, in southern Edom or northern Arabia, and makes allusion to places as far apart as Mesopotamia and Egypt.[18]​

There's also The Wisdom Books, but that would require actually reading a book.

 

[omega2xx]

Brilliant.

Not brilliant, just more brilliant than yours.

Also from Wikipedia:

Ascribed by Rabbinic tradition to Moses, it is generally agreed by scholars that the book comes from the period between the 7th and 4th centuries BCE, with the 6th century BCE as the most likely date for a variety of reasons.[17] The anonymous author was almost certainly an Israelite, although he has set his story outside Israel, in southern Edom or northern Arabia, and makes allusion to places as far apart as Mesopotamia and Egypt.[18​

Good Bible scholars disagree with the Rabbinic traditions. I will stick with them​

There's also The Wisdom Books, but that would require actually reading a book.

You need to get your crystal ball re-calibrated. How do you know I have not read the wisdom books? I have probably read them at least as much as you have, probably more.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Not brilliant, just more brilliant than yours.

And my daddy can beat your daddy.

Good Bible scholars disagree with the Rabbinic traditions. I will stick with them

Seriously, you really need to work on reading comprehension. The quote offered the view generally agreed upon by scholars as being counterposed to Rabbibc tradition, i.e., scholarship suggests a date circa 6th century BCE.

How do you know I have not read the wisdom books?

And, again, you need to work on reading comprehension. What was being referenced above was not the scripture but the brilliant translation and equally brilliant commentary.

I have probably read them at least as much as you have, probably more.

I seriously doubt, but the issue is irrelevant.

Many consider the book of Job to be the oldest book in the Bible. So any myth about sea serpents probably have their origin in the book of Job, not the other way around.

And this statement is simply stupid. Ever we presume Job to be the oldest book in the bible, that would in no way suggest that "any myth about sea serpents probably have their origin in the book of Job, not the other way around". I'll leave it to you to figure out why.

 

[omega2xx]

And my daddy can beat your daddy.

Seriously, you really need to work on reading comprehension. The quote offered the view generally agreed upon by scholars as being counterposed to Rabbibc tradition, i.e., scholarship suggests a date circa 6th century BCE.

Most of the time when I read, something I am a skimmer. That does cause me to miss a lot.

And, again, you need to work on reading comprehension. What was being referenced above was not the scripture but the brilliant translation and equally brilliant commentary.[/QUOTE]

The translation may have been brilliant, but the commentary may not have been. I guess I am going to have to revisit that post after practicing my reading comprehensions.

And this statement is simply stupid.

What is stupid is you saying what scholars far better qualified than you is stupid.

Ever we presume Job to be the oldest book in the bible, that would in no way suggest that "any myth about sea serpents probably have their origin in the book of Job, not the other way around". I'll leave it to you to figure out why.

Logically speaking, the earlier the story, the more likely it is that myths will be built around the literal event.

I tried to writ this at a reading comprehension lever you can understand.

 

[Brian Schuh]

I take the allusion to Leviathan to mean that to be great also means you are solitary. For if there are many of you, you lose greatness.

Leviathan is both great and solitary. And he is greater because of being solitary. Hey, Job, I the Lord punished Leviathan to make him solitary, and now he is a truly great sea monster.

That makes sense, that could be consolation to Job. Job never became as great as Leviathan because he proceeded to have three daughters.

Any thoughts?

 

[Ingledsva]

Both explanations seem reasonable.

The Cosmic serpent explanation however does not consider the idea that Leviathan had multiple heads that were crushed, or that he became a food source.

-- The reason for defeating the Cosmic serpent, i.e. safe or unimpeded voyage, doesn't align.

1. It goes back to myths of many headed beasts.

2. You don't think your enemy has many heads?

3. They are blending Sun myth.

*