The Myth of a "Christian America"

[Antifascist_Action]

This article does a good job of summing up what I've bee saying. America is not, in theory a Christian nation. Nor should it ever be.

The Christian Nation Myth

Whenever the Supreme Court makes a decision that in any way restricts the intrusion of religion into the affairs of government, a flood of editorials, articles, and letters protesting the ruling is sure to appear in the newspapers. Many protesters decry these decisions on the grounds that they conflict with the wishes and intents of the "founding fathers."

Such a view of American history is completely contrary to known facts. The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

These beliefs were forcefully articulated by Thomas Paine in Age of Reason, a book that so outraged his contemporaries that he died rejected and despised by the nation that had once revered him as "the father of the American Revolution." To this day, many mistakenly consider him an atheist, even though he was an out spoken defender of the Deistic view of God. Other important founding fathers who espoused Deism were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe.

Fundamentalist Christians are currently working overtime to convince the American public that the founding fathers intended to establish this country on "biblical principles," but history simply does not support their view. The men mentioned above and others who were instrumental in the founding of our nation were in no sense Bible-believing Christians. Thomas Jefferson, in fact, was fiercely anti-cleric. In a letter to Horatio Spafford in 1814, Jefferson said, "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes" (George Seldes, The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey Citadel Press, 1983, p. 371). In a letter to Mrs. Harrison Smith, he wrote, "It is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be read. By the same test the world must judge me. But this does not satisfy the priesthood. They must have a positive, a declared assent to all their interested absurdities. My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest" (August 6, 1816).

 

[mmead7456]

Well put. The establishment of a society based on separation of church and state. From a "religious" quote espousing the same would be "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's."

 

[Bob Dixon]

Just look at the USA today, even.

It's far from Christian.

 

[ChieftheCef]

This article does a good job of summing up what I've bee saying. America is not, in theory a Christian nation. Nor should it ever be.

The Christian Nation Myth

That's why all of us bring about hate to Jordan Peterson. Thanks.

 

[paarsurrey]

separation of church and state

Is a must for every country, whatever the religion of the people, please, right?

Regards

 

[ChieftheCef]

Is a must for every country, whatever the religion of the people, please, right?

Regards

It is the pragmatic policy.

 

[wellwisher]

This article does a good job of summing up what I've bee saying. America is not, in theory a Christian nation. Nor should it ever be.

The Christian Nation Myth

The question becomes why did the founding father include freedom of religion, in the First Amendment, if they were so against it?

The Founding Fathers were not against religion, but a potential unholy alliance between religion and the state, like had formed in the Church of England. The King of England, wanted to divorce his wife, but the Catholic Church would not allow it. So the King left the Catholic Church to form his own version of the Church, with divorce now part of the new doctrine. The State could use its state run religion like a tool. Freedom of religion was a way to prevent this in America. If you read the Amendment all the restrictions are on Government and not the people.

The Constitution restricts the State from instituting a puppet religion, like the King of England, not Religion instituting a puppet State. When Churches are attacked by the Left, and the Government does nothing but allows the terror tactics of Leftist to go uninsured, it is trying to make a puppet religion, who will allow all the weird things their Leftist State likes.

Thomas Paine and Age of Reason, would never have supported the Statistical Methods used by Government, marketing and science, since this tool does not use or require reason, just blind faith in a math oracle like a strange religion. Black box assumptions is not how reason works. It is hard to reach logical conclusion with fuzzy dice data, since a line of reason between two fizzy dice data points, can touch at a range of angles. This allows fairy tales from bizarre religions like Liberalism, that Government can control.

As far as Christianity, all of the Founding Fathers had a Christian upbringing, but they were from a wide range of Christian Denominations. Most of them retain this as adults, but others modified their orthodoxy, to various degree with the philosophy of Deism. There is a catch.

From Encyclopedia Britannica

Whatever their beliefs, the Founders came from similar religious backgrounds. Most were Protestants. The largest number were raised in the three largest Christian traditions of colonial America—Anglicanism (as in the cases of John Jay, George Washington, and Edward Rutledge), Presbyterianism (as in the cases of Richard Stockton and the Rev. John Witherspoon), and Congregationalism (as in the cases of John Adams and Samuel Adams). Other Protestant groups included the Society of Friends (Quakers), the Lutherans, and the Dutch Reformed. Three Founders—Charles Carroll and Daniel Carroll of Maryland and Thomas Fitzsimmons of Pennsylvania—were of Roman Catholic heritage.

The sweeping disagreement over the religious faiths of the Founders arises from a question of discrepancy. Did their private beliefs differ from the orthodox teachings of their churches? On the surface, most Founders appear to have been orthodox (or “right-believing”) Christians. Most were baptized, listed on church rolls, married to practicing Christians, and frequent or at least sporadic attenders of services of Christian worship. In public statements, most invoked divine assistance.

But the widespread existence in 18th-century America of a school of religious thought called Deism complicates the actual beliefs of the Founders. Drawing from the scientific and philosophical work of such figures as Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Isaac Newton, and John Locke, Deists argued that human experience and rationality—rather than religious dogma and mystery—determine the validity of human beliefs. In his widely read The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine, the principal American exponent of Deism, called Christianity “a fable.” Paine, the protégé of Benjamin Franklin, denied “that the Almighty ever did communicate anything to man, by…speech,…language, or…vision.” Postulating a distant deity whom he called “Nature’s God” (a term also used in the Declaration of Independence), Paine declared in a “profession of faith”:

Thus, Deism inevitably subverted orthodox Christianity. Persons influenced by the movement had little reason to read the Bible, to pray, to attend church, or to participate in such rites as baptism, Holy Communion, and the laying on of hands (confirmation) by bishops. With the notable exceptions of Abigail Adams and Dolley Madison, Deism seems to have had little effect on women. For example, Martha Washington, the daughters of Thomas Jefferson, and Elizabeth Kortright Monroe and her daughters seem to have held orthodox Christian beliefs.

The Women raised the children, and the Children were raised as Christians. Many of the older boys and men became Deist, somewhere between their upbringing and Deism, which believed in a God, but also the power of reason and not the land of dice and cards or unicorns.

Paine, the protégé of Benjamin Franklin, denied “that the Almighty ever did communicate anything to man, by…speech,…language, or…vision.” Postulating a distant deity whom he called “Nature’s God” (a term also used in the Declaration of Independence), Paine declared in a “profession of faith”:

I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and in endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.

Deism was modeled on Christian Philosophy; love your neighbor, but without the mythology; illumination by the Spirit of reason and truth.

 

[sun rise]

unholy alliance between religion and the state

For a horrible example: Afghanistan but there are many others not quite a bad, of course, but proving the point. And as @wellwisher pointed out, the First Amendment is specifically about freedom of religion along with many other things. So those who want an American theocracy are not only anti-American but anti-Christ's message.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Myth of a "Christian America"​

For a horrible example: Afghanistan but there are many others not quite a bad, of course, but proving the point. And as @wellwisher pointed out, the First Amendment is specifically about freedom of religion along with many other things. So those who want an American theocracy are not only anti-American but anti-Christ's message.

anti-Christ

Aren't the Paulines, I understand, working against the teachings and deeds of (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ( who was neither a Zealot, nor he belonged to the Zionism people nor to the Judaism people), please, right??
In this very sense, as I figure, the Paulines (All 45000+ of its denomination including the JWs and the Latter-Day Saints aka Mormons) are Anti-Christ and or these are Christianity's Golden Calf, please, right?

Regards

 

[wellwisher]

For a horrible example: Afghanistan but there are many others not quite a bad, of course, but proving the point. And as @wellwisher pointed out, the First Amendment is specifically about freedom of religion along with many other things. So those who want an American theocracy are not only anti-American but anti-Christ's message.

It is not so much an American Theocracy, but an America State run Theocracy, which was seen as the worst case scenario. Imagine a bunch of Atheists or pragmatic Diest, forming a theocracy, not because of faith and religious belief, but as tool to control the masses. It could be used to double tax; income plus tithes, while keeping this silent. It can start wars by pushing faith buttons; Palestine and Israel. The State has all the power and money, but religion has a deep power over people. Atheism is jealous of that power, but has money and political power to try and set up such a puppet religion.

The Constitution is about the State not able to institute such a puppet religion, by decree, to manipulate the citizens with little benefit to the citizen that a sincere religion can offer. Freedom of religion allows citizens to use their beliefs when participating in the Democratic process, that defines the elected officials of the State, thereby making the State reflecting the will of all the people, including the religious.

My belief now is. that main reason for the first Amendment, adding freedom of religion, speech, and press, may have been an addendum for the women and children of that time. The men, who may have been raised as Christians, were often Diest as adults. However, Deism was a man's sport and did not appeal to the females who raised the children. The women found it was easier and more effective to train and teach children good manners, with religion, than with reason, since children are impulsive and not always reasonable. As the boys became young men, many became Deist with a fading Christian foundation. They would still practice, socially, with their wives and children on Sunday and Holidays. But in the smoke filled rooms of men's clubs, they would debate like rational Deists.

I was a Deist who started out as a Catholic. My education was in science and I wanted to more like Mr Spock and seek logical explanations. My approach was to assume the stories of religion were genuine, but not in a magic or sixth sense way, but more in terms of being explainable by psychology; firmware of the collective unconscious mind and Jungian Psychology. I took an operating system of the brain approach to religion; explainable by neural science.

During my explorations of the my own unconscious mind, where I became the scientist and the experiment, I noticed how the various religious systems; symbols, appeared to map out how the operating system of my brain was set up. There are three levels of Archetypes or firmware like the trinity. I returned to my religious background, due to reaching as a scary impasse; shadow, that I could not just reason away. What I found was prayer could calm my animal body of its extreme fear seeing the bogeyman. After that, my reason was my sword and prayer was my shield. These tools made me backtrack, since now religions became a major source of data and deep insight, but based on my science context. This also renewed my faith, since this state of mind and heart; sincere faith, has a lock and key effect on deeper parts of the operating system.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Myth of a "Christian America"​

However, Deism was a man's sport and did not appeal to the females who raised the children. The women found it was easier and more effective to train and teach children good manners, with religion, than with reason, since children are impulsive and not always reasonable. As the boys became young men, many became Deist with a fading Christian foundation. They would still practice, socially, with their wives and children on Sunday and Holidays. But in the smoke filled rooms of men's clubs, they would debate like rational Deists.

That explains the American society very well, how about the "Bible-belt" America, please, right??

Regards

 

[wellwisher]

The Myth of a "Christian America"​

That explains the American society very well, how about the "Bible-belt" America, please, right??

Regards

The thirteen Colonies of America were founded by mostly people from a wide range of Christian denominations. The rest of the Americas; North, South and Central, were colonies of Spain and France and other Christian countries; Germany, Portugal, Denmark, Italy, etc. Latin America which is Central and South America is a reference to Roman Catholic.

Many of the founding fathers, in the original 13 British Colonies were Deists. This makes sense. These men were educated and all successful men, positioned very well in culture; the elite. I can see how Deism would allow for more secular freedom that someone, in that someone in that social position would feel more entitled to choices. Freedom to Pursue Happiness makes more sense if one could make use of all the possible secular freedoms, and not be too under the thumb of religious or social regulations.

Religious freedom was sort of contradictory to the freedom to pursue happiness, but was also accepted, since the home and family was a women's world in those days. Religion would help mothers create good civilized children and families, with a conscience and empathy, so as they got older, if the males wished to become more secular, they would not become criminal, but find a spiritual balance; Deism.

I started another related topic. I posed the question whether Democracy is only possible in Christian Countries. One of things that made Christianity different is since it had to preached to all the nations. It is far more accepting of differences. Also, Christianity had been unified as the Catholic Church and a world empire, but before the discovery of America, Christianity began to divide; Protestant Movement. Brother and sister of one family, became more like cousins of an extended family.

Christianity was also a blend of local secular customs; ethnic, and Christianity, such as Haitian Churches that also practice voodoo. Christianity does not impose beyond the church teachings on secular ethnicity, but allows more cultural freedom and acceptances of differences. It was easier to have a melting pot in the USA, since forming a new country among cousins was easier. Turn the other cheek is a good strategy if you wish freedom of speech in a Democracy.

The Jewish religion can support Democracy, but only among their own group. It does not scale to a large country like the USA, since there is condition to be fully accepted; blood line. This is a problem in Israel, in terms of a wider democracy and regional peace. Both main cultures in the area, do not accept people as they are, but only those who accept their way. You can't bring another way and expect the same freedoms.

If you want a theocracy you cannot have a Democracy. I am not criticizing any religion, but the main part of any theocracy is mass conformity to doctrine, with freedoms deviating too much, no longer free. If you want Socialism, also kiss Democracy good bye, since the state rules, not the people. Many cultures are more tribal, which preclude other tribes; pocket democracy instead of coat democracy.

A free market is also connected to Democracy, since such a market place allows the freedom for a wide variety of supply and a wide variety of demand with the market deciding the balance based on supply merit and demand desire; pursuit of happiness. Once you have Big Government picking winners and losers; green energy over oil, freedom is taken away from the Democracy, by Big Brother.

It is ironical that the Democrat party is named after Democracy, but likes Big Government, which by its very nature takes away the freedom and rights needed for a real Democracy; bait and switch. A welfare state is not democracy, since democracy needs freedom of choice, which one cannot get if you are a social dependent. The Christian Church made lazy a sin, and expected everyone to work and be productive, if possible, thereby allowing more options and control in terms of pursuit of happiness.

The Myth that America was not founded on Christianity is scam, the goal of which is to take away the foundation of Democracy, so it can default to a class society modeled on royalty and entitlement; Rich and powerful and then everyone else, with two sets of rules. The American experiment, left the Monarchy State composed of elites and serf/peasants. It was build on the notion of all human were created equal; equal rights and opportunity, including those an Entitlement States, like a Monarchy. Monarchies never allowed Democracy.

 

[wellwisher]

The Myth of a "Christian America"​

That explains the American society very well, how about the "Bible-belt" America, please, right??

Regards

I lived in the heart of the Bible Belt, in the 1980's, and it was the most friendly place I had ever lived. I hated to leave. Strangers would strike up a conversation with you and often invite you to dinner to get to know you. The girls/women were friendly. They liked my Yankee accent. This was all connected to Southern Hospitality. I was from the North where the pace was faster and people are more opinionated, but usually in a less friendly and edgy way; hustle and bustle.

One thing about the South was that marriage did not seem to be very monogamous. Everyone seemed in play and that was socially acceptable. The joke was the Preacher, and after service, would talk to the couples and have one hand on your wallet and other hand on your wife. I was brought up to not commit adultery. So I had to look gift horses in the mouth, and ask, to be safe. But there were also plenty of divorce women looking for fun or the next husband, so there was alway more hospitality. I had been shy/old fashion with girls, but there I became a player.

This strange behavior inversion is due to law. The bible belt is more strict and often more Old Testament; fire and brimstone. One is taught to be perfect and repress the imperfect. The repressed imperfect side of the law; evil, creates a dam and a potential. The potential can come up in impulsive ways as a mirror reflection of the ideal; white lambs become gray rabbits. The righteous man lives by faith and avoids repression of evil since there are fewer laws to polarize the unconscious mind, and require it animate the darkness to lower the potential. My faith saw my new found charisma, in a sea of Southern Bells, a gift from heaven; Jubilee.

 

[Kenny]

Many of the founding fathers, in the original 13 British Colonies were Deists.

True… but most were of the Christian faith.

 

[Spice]

The Myth of a "Christian America"​

That explains the American society very well, how about the "Bible-belt" America, please, right??

Regards

The issue in the Bible-belt is left over animosity from the Civil War. It's a "I'll be damned if you're going to tell me how I'm supposed to think, feel, act, or believe." The majority have their heels dug into 1955.

More and more are beginning to dig out of the past. I think a lot of it has to do with the future looking so scary if we backtrack. You can't have The Cleavers without Amos and Andy. And you can't have Elvis and the birth of rock 'n roll without Korea and Vietnam.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I lived in the heart of the Bible Belt, in the 1980's, and it was the most friendly place I had ever lived. I hated to leave. Strangers would strike up a conversation with you and often invite you to dinner to get to know you. The girls/women were friendly. They liked my Yankee accent. This was all connected to Southern Hospitality. I was from the North where the pace was faster and people are more opinionated, but usually in a less friendly and edgy way; hustle and bustle.

One thing about the South was that marriage did not seem to be very monogamous. Everyone seemed in play and that was socially acceptable. The joke was the Preacher, and after service, would talk to the couples and have one hand on your wallet and other hand on your wife. I was brought up to not commit adultery. So I had to look gift horses in the mouth, and ask, to be safe. But there were also plenty of divorce women looking for fun or the next husband, so there was alway more hospitality. I had been shy/old fashion with girls, but there I became a player.

This strange behavior inversion is due to law. The bible belt is more strict and often more Old Testament; fire and brimstone. One is taught to be perfect and repress the imperfect. The repressed imperfect side of the law; evil, creates a dam and a potential. The potential can come up in impulsive ways as a mirror reflection of the ideal; white lambs become gray rabbits. The righteous man lives by faith and avoids repression of evil since there are fewer laws to polarize the unconscious mind, and require it animate the darkness to lower the potential. My faith saw my new found charisma, in a sea of Southern Bells, a gift from heaven; Jubilee.

I still remember the old blue laws where everything was closed on Sundays and people stayed at home with their families , had dinner , play a ball game or whatever.

 

[wellwisher]

I still remember the old blue laws where everything was closed on Sundays and people stayed at home with their families , had dinner , play a ball game or whatever.

I remember where I lived there were "Dry Counties", which were geographical areas where merchants could not sell alcohol of any kind at any time. However, these same areas often had some nice night clubs and exotic dancer halls. The legal/moral work-around was that although those clubs could not serve alcohol, if they become private clubs, with paying members; nightly cover charge, the members could bring in their own booze; Beer, Jack, wine or whatever. You had to buy mixers and ice, and tip the waitresses for using clean glasses. The cover change and tip was way less than you would spent on alcohol in a wet Country. It was a good deal to have dry Counties and private clubs with a short term nightly membership, with BYOB.

In some way the Bible Belt was strict, but in other ways it was very free; democracy, and with secular law enforcement restricted to real crime. I remember there was no safety inspection for cars, which allows the motor heads to beef out there vehicles. It was almost impossible to get a speeding ticket and drunk driving was how you got home after being out late. Just do not have an accident. I remember doing home after being out, just making it to my parking spot, at my apartment, when I ran out of gas; whoops. It was a friendly place and I like to live on that edge. The next day I had to hike to the gas station and get gallon so I could come back and fill it.

One memory was there were lots of mountains where I lived in Eastern Tennessee. I decided to go hiking but did not know the area at that time. So I drove toward the heights and saw a place to park on the side of the road. I decided to bushwack upward through the thick forest. I tried to mark my trail by noting falling trees, but when I came down, there was so many fallen trees, I lost my original trail. I did eventually end up about 1/4 mile from my car, where a pack of dogs saw me and chased me to my car. I was a fast runner then, and it was not too close.

Before I drove off, a police vehicle stops me and ask what I doing there. He said I was on the perimeter grounds of a State Prison, and they were guards and had seen me hiking and thought I might be an escaped convict. Luckily, they accepted my explanation and warmed me to be careful around here. There are plenty of black bears and much of the land around those parts were own by the Hatfields and McCoys, and they do not take kindly to strangers. After that I got a map and hiked in designated safe places and stayed conscious for bears. The locals told me to make noise and not take the bears by surprise. I would hike with two rocks, that I would clap together, before going round bends.

The Smokey Mountains, where I hiked the most, were old mountains that were south of the glaciers of the last ice age. Unlike the Mountains of the North, which were rugged by being eroded by the glacier, those mountain trails were soft and cushiony, I could run those trials and cover distance in a hurry compared to the rugged mountains of the North.

I also enjoyed the folk music of the Hillbillies; Country Music, I remember an eating place called Buddy's Barbecue. The would not serve you alcohol unless you bought food, since it was a family place, and they did not want loud drunks. It also had bands and music. It was very friendly with heart felt folk music, which was common to the mountain people and those who hike in any Mountains.