The Law

[Ken Brown]

That is the importance of Jesus the Messiah.

The large sector of what claims to be Christianity you should have no problem seeing does not teach what Jesus taught. They claim they do and they will wear you out defending that they do, but they don't. And i believe you know that but would attribute that to a cause convenient to your imagination.

That is not proof of anything to do with Jesus but is squarely rooted in the same conspiracy helping to sow division and corruption into the Christian congregation principally through Jewish antichrists as is yet happening here and now.



Jesus as the Messiah would have to draw men to himself as the one God raised up to help his (that is, God's) people. God had raised up many helpers to his people in times past on a temporary basis. But in the one like unto Moses he raised up a final helper (the point of Hebrews 2:16 when properly translated) to the seed of Abraham. No one is drawn to him to serve him as false Christianity teaches. They are drawn to him to learn from him how to be the image of God they were created for the purpose of being.

It is the false doctrine of the Trinity which has caused them to twist what the New testament Bible writers wrote so as to portray Jesus as worshiped by men.

As Jews we have no excuse not to know better than most men that obeisance is not worship and can be properly rendered to human kings. But the truth is that the first seeds which ultimately grew into the Trinity belief were planted by Jews as anti-christian Jews sought to corrupt the Christian congregation with things they could later point to as proof that the whole Christianity movement is false. It was not unexpected. Nothing was accomplished beyond what was known would be accomplished and God has already collected the full number of his holy ones in the Messiah wherein they along with the Son worship the One True God Yehovah.

All that now remains is the finish.

Shalom Mountain Climber, I think that maybe you might have misunderstood something very important. The "lifting up," that ALL men were drawn into, was the DEATH of Moshiach (Jn 12:33). Do you grasp that? When the Moshiach died, ALL died (2 Cor 5:14), it was complete and utter desolation, and this is why those who comprehend this, bury their dead bodies, and go about helping others to also bury their dead bodies. Are you not familiar with what the Torah requires when one comes into contact with the dead? When one dieth in a "tent," all that are "within" that tent are defiled by that death. The writer of Hebrews states that the "outer tent" (the Holy Place) is a symbol for the present time/age, and when Moshiach died in this present age (the tent/Holy Place), all of those who have come INTO this present age are defiled by His Death, and need to bury their dead bodies, so they can THEN be cleansed/saved by His Life (Rm 5:10). The greatest mystery found within the Torah, which even King Solomon despaired greatly over to understand, is how can the Ashes, that had Living Water added to them in the Vessel, BOTH defile and cleanse. Do YOU see these things Mountain Climber? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Shalom Mountain Climber, I think that maybe you might have misunderstood something very important. The "lifting up," that ALL men were drawn into, was the DEATH of Moshiach (Jn 12:33). Do you grasp that? When the Moshiach died, ALL died (2 Cor 5:14), it was complete and utter desolation, and this is why those who comprehend this, bury their dead bodies, and go about helping others to also bury their dead bodies. Are you not familiar with what the Torah requires when one comes into contact with the dead? When one dieth in a "tent," all that are "within" that tent are defiled by that death. The writer of Hebrews states that the "outer tent" (the Holy Place) is a symbol for the present time/age, and when Moshiach died in this present age (the tent/Holy Place), all of those who have come INTO this present age are defiled by His Death, and need to bury their dead bodies, so they can THEN be cleansed/saved by His Life (Rm 5:10). The greatest mystery found within the Torah, which even King Solomon despaired greatly over to understand, is how can the Ashes, that had Living Water added to them in the Vessel, BOTH defile and cleanse. Do YOU see these things Mountain Climber? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Thank you for clarifying that to be a part of how you are seeing it. I have heard others speak to it in a different manner for a different purpose and thought that is what you were doing. But, yes, that is the essence of Paul's thoughts at Romans 3:19.

I am very happy to see that you understand correctly what the holy tabernacle of the sanctuary represents. I have tried to get many to see that is what Paul is speaking of as, "our earthly house of this tabernacle", in 2 Corinthians 5. Yet so many cannot get past thinking that Paul is speaking of their individual bodies of flesh.

I may be suffering fatigue from the constant battle it is to help others to see. Jehovah's Witnesses especially frustrate me as they come so close in so many ways and then fall right back to a failure to understand.

 

[JesusBeliever]

Not that I presume anyone cares, but if anyone were interested, most Jews find it both annoying and creepy when Christians randomly start Jewing up their conversation with Hebraisms and Judaic vernacular, as though that somehow made their Christianity more authentically Jewish. It's a little like verbal blackface.

Hi there Levite,

Honestly, I think if you were to ask any of the Christians involved or watching this conversation to point out an instance of "Hebraisms and Judaic vernacular" being used they probably wouldn't be able to tell you. I know I couldn't! I honestly think that if this is happening it's not intentional. Could it be that you're not accustomed to hearing Christians show regard to the OT as much as the NT? In the NT, Jesus spoke of the OT Scriptures saying:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." Joh 5:39-40

Personally, I'm inclined to say that what appears to be an attempt by Christians to be more authentically Jewish is actually an attempt to be more authentically Christian, interpreting our Scriptures (both OT & NT) the way that our Lord and His followers teach us in the NT. But in saying that, we Christians have to be careful also, that we don't lose sight of the one for whom our Scriptures testify. Like a contemporary Christian singer says in one of her songs:

"I won't find what I am looking for
If I only "see" by keeping score
'Cos I know now you are so much more than arithmetic

'Cos if I add, if I subtract
If I give it all, try to take some back
I've forgotten the freedom that comes from the fact
That you are the sum
So you are the one
I want"

Kind regards

 

[Ken Brown]

Thank you for clarifying that to be a part of how you are seeing it. I have heard others speak to it in a different manner for a different purpose and thought that is what you were doing. But, yes, that is the essence of Paul's thoughts at Romans 3:19.

I am very happy to see that you understand correctly what the holy tabernacle of the sanctuary represents. I have tried to get many to see that is what Paul is speaking of as, "our earthly house of this tabernacle", in 2 Corinthians 5. Yet so many cannot get past thinking that Paul is speaking of their individual bodies of flesh.

I may be suffering fatigue from the constant battle it is to help others to see. Jehovah's Witnesses especially frustrate me as they come so close in so many ways and then fall right back to a failure to understand.

Shalom Mountain Climber, is it safe for me to assume that you grasp how Moshiach's unjust murder, by ALL sinners, is the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by the Prophet Daniel. Upon "seeing" this Abomination, that is upon seeing Moshiach made to stand upon the Cross in this Present Age (the Holy Place), a place that He should not have been made to stand or be lifted up, it becomes a sinner's obligation to be "cut to the heart," and flee from their sin that placed Him where He should not be shamed to stand. Can you "see" the Power of the Cross in turning us from our iniquities? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew,

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Shalom Mountain Climber, is it safe for me to assume that you grasp how Moshiach's unjust murder, by ALL sinners, is the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by the Prophet Daniel. Upon "seeing" this Abomination, that is upon seeing Moshiach made to stand upon the Cross in this Present Age (the Holy Place), a place that He should not have been made to stand or be lifted up, it becomes a sinner's obligation to be "cut to the heart," and flee from their sin that placed Him where He should not be shamed to stand. Can you "see" the Power of the Cross in turning us from our iniquities? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew,

Yes, I do understand that.

That is something I have drawn much ridicule for telling others for the past decade or more as it seems most Christians have preferred to think it was the Jews who called for the murder of Jesus when in fact it was sin, thus making all servants of sin guilty by their support of the continued existence of sin in this world.

Sin depends upon the ignorance in man for it's existence. When that ignorance is done away with, sin dies along with it, which is why the biologically inherited sin idea is so repugnant to me

During that past decade I have only found one or two people who were willing to accept that. The rest resorted to telling me that I was puffed up in thinking I knew more than their scholarly educators.

It really angered them when I would tell them that I highly suspect that if Christ would return in the flesh to walk this earth once again it would be the so many who see themselves as godly who would rush to put him to death again.

Believing that man is powerless to conquer sin, (which they believe because they believe sin is a biologically inherited nature of their literal flesh), the many have continued to be servants of sin. And servants of sin cannot help but do the will of sin, which would put Christ to death a second time, even as it fights against the truth which does away with the ignorance that supports sin.

 

[roger1440]

Work on that some more.

You are speaking by your own opinion but not seeing the full picture.

You say: "The problem wasn’t what he offered; the problem was where he got it from. Same thing with Mother’s Day, one must give from the heart and not simply go through the motions."

The underlined part is what I have been saying. The first part while true was not what Samuel's point was. Samuel's point was addressed to Saul's belief that he was giving his best when he was not. That Saul said, “But I did obey the Lord”, supports that conclusion.

You will never really know if you agree with anything I say until you give what i say a fair chance, which you are not doing because you are too busy looking to find fault. But all you are accomplishing is a fudging of perspective. And you deserve to do better for yourself.

God does not require stuff. He DEMANDS sacrifice. This was the message of the Jewish orthodox prophets and the message of the Jesus that was meant to be.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

God does not require stuff. He DEMANDS sacrifice. This was the message of the Jewish orthodox prophets and the message of the Jesus that was meant to be.

Micah 6:7-8 "Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Take time with it and think it through.

 

[Paranoid Android]

I came across this:

"Some Christians believe that they should keep old covenant observances such as the weekly and annual Sabbaths. A person is a "true Christian" only if he or she observes Sabbaths and certain other old covenant requirements. But the truth is that these old worship regulations are not required today, and it is legalistic to teach that people must obey those rules in order to be accounted worthy of salvation."

That is a popular argument for why Christians don't observe those Laws...

Why does that paragraph say the things that it says? First the Bible commanded us to keep 613 Commandments. Where is the prophecy in the "Old Testament" that says those Laws would someday be invalid or no longer required?

So, basically, Christians believe: For example: the Mr. Smith was born 30 B.C.E. He lived a good life before the birth of the Savior and observed those Laws with all his ability. Somewhere around 34 C.E. he no longer had to observe them (for whatever reason.

True? At what exact point in history did those Laws become invalid? What Bible verses in the "Old Testament" prove this?

This cannot be proven. In fact, the opposite is true since there are a dozen or more prophesies about the Law being and standing for ever.
[Zecharyah was written in 520 B.C.E.]
Zechariah 14:18-19 says that the heathen will be forced to observe and travel to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This prophesy has never been fulfilled, nor has there ever been circumstances that even remotely resembled it.

Why would Yahweh force all people to observe a Feast that is no longer valid, and has no purpose? Why would Yahweh force people to be "legalistic?"

Also, I must point out that the prophecy is that Yahweh will force the heathen to keep the Feast. Does this mean that the Christians are keeping it already voluntarily? Or, does it mean that the Feast of Tabernacles will be a part of Hell?

[FYI I observe the Feast of Tabernacles Deut. 12:5-6]

For me, it is easy. Dementheology is basically a Judeo-Christian religion. We do not revere Jesus of Nazareth, except to admire him as a bright and intelligent mentally ill man. We adhere to the God of the Tanahk/Old Testament, and agree here the Tanahk says "Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is One." We do not believe I the Trinity.
For us, obeying the Wisdom of God is important and being moral.

 

[JesusBeliever]

Shalom Ron, we should discuss Hashem's plan. When HaSatan tempted Eve, and Adam disobeyed with her, was this a "foil" of Hashem's plan? You believe Adam and Eve had "freewill" and they KNOWINGLY disobeyed Hashem's command, so did this freewill disobedience change Hashem's plan for mankind? Have you ever given this much thought? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Hi there,
I've given this a lot of thought, yes! And no I don't believe it foiled or changed His plan at all! Coz like He promised, so shall it be:

"But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD." Num 14:21

That's why I encourage my brethren to familiarize themselves more with the OT, because it makes you aware of the Sovereign power of God's will and plan to overide and foil the plans of man. This is the same God who is described as the same yesterday, today and forever! (Hebrews 13:8, Isaiah 59:16, Luke 22:69, Hebrews 1:3, Matthew 1:21-23, Romans 6:16-18)

 

[Ken Brown]

Yes, I do understand that.

That is something I have drawn much ridicule for telling others for the past decade or more as it seems most Christians have preferred to think it was the Jews who called for the murder of Jesus when in fact it was sin, thus making all servants of sin guilty by their support of the continued existence of sin in this world.

Sin depends upon the ignorance in man for it's existence. When that ignorance is done away with, sin dies along with it, which is why the biologically inherited sin idea is so repugnant to me

During that past decade I have only found one or two people who were willing to accept that. The rest resorted to telling me that I was puffed up in thinking I knew more than their scholarly educators.

It really angered them when I would tell them that I highly suspect that if Christ would return in the flesh to walk this earth once again it would be the so many who see themselves as godly who would rush to put him to death again.

Believing that man is powerless to conquer sin, (which they believe because they believe sin is a biologically inherited nature of their literal flesh), the many have continued to be servants of sin. And servants of sin cannot help but do the will of sin, which would put Christ to death a second time, even as it fights against the truth which does away with the ignorance that supports sin.

Shalom Mountain Climber, you are unique. I do agree that everyone acted in ignorance as they were placing Moschiach up on the Cross Acts 3:17, and this was not deliberate, but when one comes to a Knowledge of the Truth concerning how their sin placed Him upon the cross, and they then fall back INTO deliberate sin, it now becomes a public spectacle in putting Him to "open" shame, and this is not allowed Heb 6:4-6, 10:26-27.

I am also curious. Do you understand Paul's teaching on Grace? How through our sin, which placed Moshaich on the Cross, we accomplish righteousness? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Ken Brown]

Hi there,
I've given this a lot of thought, yes! And no I don't believe it foiled or changed His plan at all! Coz like He promised, so shall it be:

"But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD." Num 14:21

That's why I encourage my brethren to familiarize themselves more with the OT, because it makes you aware of the Sovereign power of God's will and plan to overide and foil the plans of man. This is the same God who is described as the same yesterday, today and forever! (Hebrews 13:8, Isaiah 59:16, Luke 22:69, Hebrews 1:3, Matthew 1:21-23, Romans 6:16-18)

Shalom JB, good for you. Most feel that Hashem's plan was foiled when Satan tempted Eve and sin entered, but in reality, it was planned that they sin, they didn't have any option as "naked" flesh cannot and will not obey. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[JesusBeliever]

For me, it is easy. Dementheology is basically a Judeo-Christian religion. We do not revere Jesus of Nazareth, except to admire him as a bright and intelligent mentally ill man. We adhere to the God of the Tanahk/Old Testament, and agree here the Tanahk says "Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is One." We do not believe I the Trinity.
For us, obeying the Wisdom of God is important and being moral.

Hi there, in your own words could you give a brief summary of Dementheology as this is the first time I've heard this word and although I've looked it up, it might be different to your definition of the word. Also, it might be an irrelevant point to you but I felt it important to say that not all Christians (myself included) believe in the trinity. Personally, I have come to view the Trinity as man's attempt to create a box in which they then ask man to squeeze scripture into that box, and any verse that doesn't fit we're expected to throw out instead of the other way around. There are so many NT scriptures that prove definitively (in my opinion), that the Trinity just doesn't fit!

 

[JesusBeliever]

Sorry for my delay in replying, I've been a bit busy.

Well, I'm sure you can understand though, how Jews might find it difficult to relate to an animal's life as just.

I suppose if you take it literally yes! But not if you try to see the principle behind the metaphor. Do you not also believe as a Jew that the Law was trying to teach spiritual principles? And that really, the difference between Jews and Christians has to do with our interpretations of these spiritual principles? Sorry if this is a presumption on my part.

Jews believe grafting of two different types is prohibited (Deut. 22:9)

Yes I accept this, however our interpretation of this law might be different (Galatians 3:16, John 15:1-2).

I'm not sure how this verse is related at all. I am saying that "bearing the sin of" means to suffer because of someone's sin. For example, if A hits B, A is sinning and B is suffering from it. B is bearing the sin of A. The verse in Jer. 31:29 is referring to the punishment that A will receive for hitting B. Its two separate things.

Herein lies the major difference (I believe) between Jewish and Christian ideology regarding sin. Christians are taught in the NT that God's plan was to save us from our own sins (Matthew 1:21). This is something that has been brought to my intention recently. The human tendency in all of us to think that if others stopped sinning against me then I wouldn't be tempted to sin. When in fact, the tendency to sin was in our flesh from the beginning as revealed through Adam and Eve. We (and they) just didn't know it until the commandment came and exposed it! Our corruptibility is evident in all of us, well at least should be.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. And although it is obviously true that others have suffered in this manner as well, this was not a prophecy for everyone, it was a prophecy for Israel. It is not excluding other events that occur in the world, its only prophesying that certain events will happen to Israel. Many people will suffer under other nations. This chapter merely says that Israel will be one of them.

The NT teaches Christians that we have been grafted in to the Commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:11-22). Which I understand if this doesn't interest you either. If you'd prefer we end this conversation, I'm happy to oblige?

 

[JesusBeliever]

Hi Ken, sorry I've taken so long to reply, I've been really busy.

Shabbat Shalom JB, so if I understand you correctly, your righteousness that "exceeds" the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, is that you have a better "work" of love than they have/had? Now, when you work to love better than the scribes and Pharisees, do you abolish the command "Do not murder?" Just exactly what do you do with the commandments, do you keep them, or do you abolish them by your work of love? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

I wouldn't word it the way you have here because it suggests an arrogance on the part of Christians that we have an attitude that we can do better than the scribes and pharisees, when in truth such an attitude would make us like them in every way, according to our Lord's teachings (Luke 18:10-14).

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Shalom Mountain Climber, you are unique. I do agree that everyone acted in ignorance as they were placing Moschiach up on the Cross Acts 3:17, and this was not deliberate, but when one comes to a Knowledge of the Truth concerning how their sin placed Him upon the cross, and they then fall back INTO deliberate sin, it now becomes a public spectacle in putting Him to "open" shame, and this is not allowed Heb 6:4-6, 10:26-27.

I am also curious. Do you understand Paul's teaching on Grace? How through our sin, which placed Moshaich on the Cross, we accomplish righteousness? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

I am in agreement with you on your opening paragraph. You spoke well.

If understood in the sense that man who sins must come to die to the life of sin which holds him as a servant of sin, then it accomplished God's righteous will for us as sinners to have crucified Christ that we die so as to be set free from sin. Did Paul ever say that in any way made our sin less sin? No, but he said that we must not miss the purpose for which God's righteous will allowed this to happen, that we should accept that we are now dead to sin by ceasing to live that life wherein we were sin's servant and rising to life with Christ wherein we now should walk in the life that Christ lived and died to show us.

God's grace covers us if, and only if, we do that. For our unchangeable God is not now nor has he ever been a God that excuses sin. Some may wish to take issue with that statement, having in mind that Paul said, Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.."

When Paul said that God winked at sin in times past, did Paul mean that God excused sin? I say that anyone who really knows Paul and how Paul thought ought then to know that Paul meant merely that God looked past much, choosing to not deal with it at the particular time as his grace preferred to deal with that sin in a manner wherein he would not have to destroy men together with the sin.

But does this apply to all men? Does it apply to those whose love is sin even if it means they must choose to ignore God? Or, does that apply only to those among men whose hearts were contrite so that if they knew how to they would resist sin and not allow sin to become their master so that it interferes between themselves and the God of their love?

 

[JesusBeliever]

HOSEA 10 : 13 "you have eaten the fruit of deception, because you have depended on your own strength."
JEREMIAH 10 : 13 "I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."

Hi Ron, these are amazing and powerful scriptures! Thanks for sharing them. I'm convinced our intellectual minds are what the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil represents, of which we have all eaten this deceptive fruit and will continue to do so, until we learn like the Apostle Paul did, that there is no good thing in our flesh (Romans 7:18)! If there was then Jesus would not have needed to save us from our sins.

 

[Tumah]

Sorry for my delay in replying, I've been a bit busy.
I suppose if you take it literally yes! But not if you try to see the principle behind the metaphor.

Yes, the principle is quite clear. What requires clarification is its justification. I propose that the metaphor of "just for unjust" was applied to sacrifices in order to create Scriptural justification for the idea of Jesus' death being an atonement.

Do you not also believe as a Jew that the Law was trying to teach spiritual principles? And that really, the difference between Jews and Christians has to do with our interpretations of these spiritual principles? Sorry if this is a presumption on my part.

The Law is trying to teach many things. That doesn't provide justification for the abolition of the letter of the Law. The starting point has to be fulfilling the letter of the Law, otherwise we can create all manner of reasons why the Law doesn't apply to us. As you've in fact done.

Yes I accept this, however our interpretation of this law might be different (Galatians 3:16, John 15:1-2).

Well, that first verse is horrible justification, since to my knowledge, Scriptures never refers to mans' seed in the plural.
The second one provides no justification whatsoever. Except perhaps to say, that G-d breaks His own rules.

Herein lies the major difference (I believe) between Jewish and Christian ideology regarding sin. Christians are taught in the NT that God's plan was to save us from our own sins (Matthew 1:21). This is something that has been brought to my intention recently. The human tendency in all of us to think that if others stopped sinning against me then I wouldn't be tempted to sin. When in fact, the tendency to sin was in our flesh from the beginning as revealed through Adam and Eve. We (and they) just didn't know it until the commandment came and exposed it! Our corruptibility is evident in all of us, well at least should be.

That has nothing to do with what I was saying. I wasn't saying that the person who is getting hit is getting a sin. He is not getting a sin, he is who the sin is being done to. The one who is hitting is the one who is getting the sin. A is sinning. B is bearing the sin. That is what the phrase means.

The NT teaches Christians that we have been grafted in to the Commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:11-22). Which I understand if this doesn't interest you either. If you'd prefer we end this conversation, I'm happy to oblige?

Yes, I understand that this is what the NT says. And there is no justification for this.
Obviously I have little interest in Christian sermons. So if you can discuss ponderings about the revelations of the apostle Paul to your Christian friends and restrict our conversation to information to our discussion, I don't see why we can't continue.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Shalom JB, good for you. Most feel that Hashem's plan was foiled when Satan tempted Eve and sin entered, but in reality, it was planned that they sin, they didn't have any option as "naked" flesh cannot and will not obey. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

I am glad I caught this post 349 of yours as it answers much for me.

You haven't gotten it that "naked flesh" as you called it, cannot be anything but a follower. Naked flesh has no intelligence factor with which to make decisions. All decisions are made for it by the state of a man's spirit, be that state of the man's spirit be godly by it's allegiance to God's spirit, or be that state of the spirit ungodly by it's having defected away from loyalty to God's spirit in favor of pursuing self gratification falsely thinking it can make one happier.

Your body develops habits which show forth as cravings. We call these cravings lust when they are inordinate cravings which violate the natural law God has established for his creatures. But it begins by the defection of a man's spirit away from the supreme governing of God's spirit.

One poster here alludes to Paul's words at Romans 7:18 as his or her proof that our physical bodies are unable to keep from sin. But that poster has half heard Paul and has rushed forward presumptuously to twist what Paul said to mean what he or she really only mistakenly thinks he meant.

The spirit I talked about above which must lead the body, whether a bad spirit leading the body to bad or a good spirit leading the body to do good, Paul, in Romans 7:23, also mentions that spirit as it is what operates in the mind of men. This is what Paul describes for us at Ephesians 4:21-24. But according to that poster we are unable to do what Paul said and, "put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts", which in believing will hold that poster captive to sin.

You people, yes almost all I see posting to this thread, are only hearing what you want from Paul but you are not really hearing him through. You are those Peter spoke of at 2 Peter 3:16. I tell you that for your own good that you might come down from off of this high you are on in thinking you know so much more than you do.

I am one of few who can teach you Paul's words correctly though I like you had to first go through a time of wresting his words. But God used that wresting I was doing when I believed and taught the very things you are saying, to cause a great crash in my life. And being brought low to the ground I finally became humble enough that I could be taught. And teach me God did.

I am not speaking guesswork about the things I see you saying. I am speaking as one who was as you and had to learn the hard way what the truth really is.

It is very predictable that someone will object by way of another half thought out idea, claiming that Paul is saying in Romans 7:23 that we can be true to the law in our mind but not in our body. But Paul is merely telling us that it took time for bad habits to be formed in our bodies during the time the spirit of our minds were disconnected from God, and it takes time to undo those bad habits once we finally get the spirit of our minds reconnected to God's spirit. Our naked flesh body, according to Paul and the rest of the entirety of scripture, is but a follower; a victim of the choice of the spirit which regulates our minds. So of course nothing good dwells in the body. Anything good must come by having our spirits connected to God's spirit so that he can impart good to our minds and our minds be strong enough to lead the body as it was meant to be led.

 

[Desert Snake]

I'm unclear as to what the negative aspect of Kosher labeled foods would be. It seems to just be a good thing, to me, as I then know basically that the product is under some guidelines. Not to mention, some Kosher foods, or clearly labeled as such, can be better than non-Kosher.

ie, confusing OP

 

[Ken Brown]

I am in agreement with you on your opening paragraph. You spoke well.

If understood in the sense that man who sins must come to die to the life of sin which holds him as a servant of sin, then it accomplished God's righteous will for us as sinners to have crucified Christ that we die so as to be set free from sin. Did Paul ever say that in any way made our sin less sin? No, but he said that we must not miss the purpose for which God's righteous will allowed this to happen, that we should accept that we are now dead to sin by ceasing to live that life wherein we were sin's servant and rising to life with Christ wherein we now should walk in the life that Christ lived and died to show us.

God's grace covers us if, and only if, we do that. For our unchangeable God is not now nor has he ever been a God that excuses sin. Some may wish to take issue with that statement, having in mind that Paul said, Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.."

When Paul said that God winked at sin in times past, did Paul mean that God excused sin? I say that anyone who really knows Paul and how Paul thought ought then to know that Paul meant merely that God looked past much, choosing to not deal with it at the particular time as his grace preferred to deal with that sin in a manner wherein he would not have to destroy men together with the sin.

But does this apply to all men? Does it apply to those whose love is sin even if it means they must choose to ignore God? Or, does that apply only to those among men whose hearts were contrite so that if they knew how to they would resist sin and not allow sin to become their master so that it interferes between themselves and the God of their love?

Shalom Mountain Climber, I'm glad you are in agreement with the opening paragraph, as I know how difficult it is to accept. Concerning Paul's understanding of Grace and how to explain it, it also is very difficult. Paul had a firm foundation that ONLY the DOERS of the Torah would be declared righteous (Rm 2:13), and this goes along with what the Moshiach, Moses, David, and the other Prophets declared. All of Hashem's commandments are RIGHTEOUSNESS (Psa 119:172), and if one desires to be righteous, one had better be DOING what the commandments require.

Built INTO the Torah is a means where if one would FAIL in keeping those commandments, they could bring the prescribed offering, and after following what the Torah required, they would be righteous. Now, that righteousness, or doing what the Torah required (sacrificing because of their sin) would only last until they sinned again and then they had to go through the whole process again. Once they did, they again had righteousness because they had DONE what the Torah required them to do. But that righteousness is "fleeting," it wouldn't last, because they would fall back again into sin.

Paul, and almost all Jews understood this process of "sacrificing" for or because of your sins, and when you did follow the prescribed commands, you were declared righteous. What Paul debated and argued with his fellow Jews over was a NEW and BETTER way to attain to righteousness. He explained that when they sinned, they were automatically performing what the Torah required them to do....they were killing their sacrifice (The Moshiach). This automatic performing of sacrifice (by sinning) was a FREE GIFT from Hashem which FULFILLED the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the Torah concerning sacrifice. They were unknowingly DOING the Torah with their killing or sacrifice of the Moshiach, and they were DOING this by SINNING. So as Paul taught, INCREASE sin, you have an automatic INCREASE of Grace (The Free Gift of Righteousness). Paul even stated that if anyone sought the righteousness by the Moshiach's sacrifice, they HAD to be a sinner (Gal 2:17). Well if that is the case, then couldn't we say that Moshiach promotes sin? Isn't that what Paul said? But no way. In the sacrifice of Moshiach, sinners were destroyed, and IF one builds themselves UP AGAIN as a sinner, then they truly PROVE to Hashem they are bonafide transgressors, deserving of destruction.

Mountain Climber, there is more that could be said, but hopefully this gives an ample explanation of how our sin is turned INTO righteousness as a Free Gift (Grace) through or by the sacrifice of Moshiach. Blessings in The Name, Imahebrew.