The Kingdom of Heaven is within you

[A Vestigial Mote]

There cannot be an 'object of this universe', since the universe is Everything that can possibly exist. IOW, The Universe is not only an absolute, it is The Absolute, since there is no relative 'other' to which it can be compared.

So you do not make distinctions between items composed of matter in the universe? Is that what you would claim? Ever used a comb? Why did you select the comb for the particular job of straightening up your hair if you do not make distinctions between objects in the universe? Why not use a jellyfish? Or a stone? That sort of distinction is the only one I was making. Different objects are composed of different configurations of matter - even organically. Why not make distinctions? Without them you might end up combing your hair with jellyfish.

Even if consciousness were an emergent factor of the brain, the brain is interconnected to your body, and your body totally interconnected with the environment and to the entire Universe. Only your ego thinks it is a bag of skin separate from the Universe, that it can bulldoze the universe about in the sense of 'self and other', where no such reality exists in actuality.

I never once said that I was "Separate from the universe". Who would ever claim such? Both my material form and the energies that activate it are all matter/energy of the physical universe. Consciousness, however, does not re-enter the pool of resources of the universe once it has dissipated. And this is what I meant. Consciousness does not exist in the way that classical elements of the universe do. It is transient, and dependent on material and energy forms. It does not, and cannot exist without that configuration.

The reality is that all material reality comes out of consciousness, and not the other way around, a hard pill to swallow for the lingering materialists hanging around since the sensational discoveries of Quantum Physics have overturned the applecart of Newtonian 'billiard ball' Mechanics.

I've always found this notion that "material reality comes out of consciousness" to be rather ridiculous. I understand the intent - to state that our senses are the only link we have to perceiving that matter, and so it is our consciousness that produces the world around us for us to perceive. However, to take it so far as to say that the universe wouldn't exist without our perception there to perceive it - ludicrous. It is exactly like the question - if a tree falls in the forest when no one is around to hear, does it still make a sound? Even if the vibrations are not perceived by any ear, the vibrations of the tree falling are still enacted. And while those vibrations are not "sound" unless heard - they are the same elemental thing that they are even when heard. Much the same is the substance of the universe. It is the same substance, in the same configurations, regardless whether there is a mind to perceive it. Otherwise, by what agency would there be any way for us to perceive the same material? What determines, for instance, the number of iron atoms in existence at any given moment? Your mind? Don't make me laugh. And that number is a (even momentary) constant for you as much as it is for me. The reason I can hand you a nail, having taken measurement of it's length, weight, mass, etc. and you can take those same measurements and come up with the same values. Because the substance of the nail exists in its particular configuration, regardless if we are there to perceive it.

 

[Super Universe]

All snowflakes are unique, but all share the oneness of their existence, that is water.

The 'you' that thinks it has a soul is an illusion. Once that is realized, oneness is the case by default. 'God' is the One, manifesting Itself as the myriad forms of creation. It's all just One Big Act.

Right, you want to return and merge with and be "one" with God.

You're going to have to accept who you are, a unique personality.

 

[godnotgod]

Right, you want to return and merge with and be "one" with God.

You're going to have to accept who you are, a unique personality.

Not so. There is no such 'I' that wants to merge and be one with God. 'I' thinks it is separate from God, when no such separation has ever occurred to begin with. That is the problem with the illusory 'I'. Since 'I', a 'unique personality', is an illusion, there is nothing nor anyone to accept it.

All snowflakes are already water, have always been water, and 'return' to the state of formless water. The Formless is the fundamental reality out of which all form emerges. All such forms are, at all times, none else than The Formless, appearing as separate forms.

 

[godnotgod]

So you do not make distinctions between items composed of matter in the universe? Is that what you would claim?

I can make such distinctions whether I see them in terms of a subject/object split or not, simply because they make their appearances as separate objects. But appearances are not reality. IOW, the subject/object split as observer/observed, is only a mental construct. There is no such condition in reality, since, as I pointed out, the Universe is The Absolute, meaning that there is no other to which it can be compared, all 'objects' being included in The Universe. There is no separate 'observer' of the 'observed'. Observer, observed, and the process of observation are a single event. 'Observer' and 'observed' are not 'things', but processes intertwined as one. It is only an illusion that one can separate oneself as observer from the observed. What you are responding to is form, not actual distinct things. There are no such 'things' in the Universe, as all such 'things' co-arise interdependently with everything else, including 'you'. Therefore, what we see as separate 'things', have no inherent self-nature. And so we say that they are empty.

form is emptiness;
emptiness is form*

There are no 'items composed of matter'. There is only energy appearing as such. We know that now from the latest findings in Quantum Physics, which tells us that all 'particles' in the Universe are standing waves, which are due to fluctuations in the Quantum and Higgs Fields.

standing waves | Quantum Wave Theory

It’s confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations

*from: The Heart Sutra

 

[godnotgod]

I never once said that I was "Separate from the universe". Who would ever claim such? Both my material form and the energies that activate it are all matter/energy of the physical universe. Consciousness, however, does not re-enter the pool of resources of the universe once it has dissipated. And this is what I meant. Consciousness does not exist in the way that classical elements of the universe do. It is transient, and dependent on material and energy forms. It does not, and cannot exist without that configuration.

You assume that consciousness has its origin in the brain, a weak hypothesis called 'Emergent Theory', which is not a true scientific theory, and which is akin to saying that TV signals originate inside the TV set.

But even if it were so, where does non-material consciousness leave off and the outside environment begin?

And at which point in evolution did a material brain create non-material consciousness?

'Classical elements of the Universe' no longer 'exist' as once thought. They only exist as a function of consciousness, the fundamental reality. You have things backwards.

 

[godnotgod]

I've always found this notion that "material reality comes out of consciousness" to be rather ridiculous. I understand the intent - to state that our senses are the only link we have to perceiving that matter, and so it is our consciousness that produces the world around us for us to perceive. However, to take it so far as to say that the universe wouldn't exist without our perception there to perceive it - ludicrous. It is exactly like the question - if a tree falls in the forest when no one is around to hear, does it still make a sound? Even if the vibrations are not perceived by any ear, the vibrations of the tree falling are still enacted. And while those vibrations are not "sound" unless heard - they are the same elemental thing that they are even when heard. Much the same is the substance of the universe. It is the same substance, in the same configurations, regardless whether there is a mind to perceive it. Otherwise, by what agency would there be any way for us to perceive the same material? What determines, for instance, the number of iron atoms in existence at any given moment? Your mind? Don't make me laugh. And that number is a (even momentary) constant for you as much as it is for me. The reason I can hand you a nail, having taken measurement of it's length, weight, mass, etc. and you can take those same measurements and come up with the same values. Because the substance of the nail exists in its particular configuration, regardless if we are there to perceive it.

I did not say it was our personal consciousness which creates material reality; personal consciousness is 'I', and 'I' is an illusion. I said it is Consciousness perse. The Big Bang was an event in Consciousness, without an agent of Consciousenss.

BTW, no, there is no sound if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it. For sound to occur, a receptor is required. There are sound waves, but no sound.

 

[Super Universe]

Not so. There is no such 'I' that wants to merge and be one with God. 'I' thinks it is separate from God, when no such separation has ever occurred to begin with. That is the problem with the illusory 'I'. Since 'I', a 'unique personality', is an illusion, there is nothing nor anyone to accept it.

All snowflakes are already water, have always been water, and 'return' to the state of formless water. The Formless is the fundamental reality out of which all form emerges. All such forms are, at all times, none else than The Formless, appearing as separate forms.

For you to "think" that you are separate, and not remember, then there is a separation. That seperation might only be a small thing compared to God but it is unique and an individual.

I is an illusion? It is, but that illusion continues forever.

If you ceased to be "I" and you joined with "one". "You" would blend in with infinite others and become Borg. God is not Borg. I am not Borg, nor am I a snowflake. A snowflake is a snowflake.

 

[godnotgod]

For you to "think" that you are separate, and not remember, then there is a separation. That seperation might only be a small thing compared to God but it is unique and an individual.

I is an illusion? It is, but that illusion continues forever.

If you ceased to be "I" and you joined with "one". "You" would blend in with infinite others and become Borg. God is not Borg. I am not Borg, nor am I a snowflake. A snowflake is a snowflake.

Imagining separation is not actually separation; it is the illusion of separation.

But if you still insist that separation is a reality, then please show me where such separation exists.

If 'I' is an illusion, it had a beginning and therefore must come to an end. Only that which is real has no beginning or end.

Because 'I' is an illusion, there is no joining with the One; everything is already One. Only the illusion that is 'I' imagines it is separate and therefore must join with the One. Borg is also 'I'. The Absolute is neither 'I' nor 'not-I', as it is beyond all duality. However, The Absolute is playing itself as numerous 'i''s. You are The Absolute, pretending to be 'I', while also pretending not to be The Absolute.

 

[Super Universe]

Imagining separation is not actually separation; it is the illusion of separation.

But if you still insist that separation is a reality, then please show me where such separation exists.

If 'I' is an illusion, it had a beginning and therefore must come to an end. Only that which is real has no beginning or end.

Because 'I' is an illusion, there is no joining with the One; everything is already One. Only the illusion that is 'I' imagines it is separate and therefore must join with the One. Borg is also 'I'. The Absolute is neither 'I' nor 'not-I', as it is beyond all duality. However, The Absolute is playing itself as numerous 'i''s. You are The Absolute, pretending to be 'I', while also pretending not to be The Absolute.

The illusion serves it's purpose.

Show you were separation exists? I don't remember being God. I don't remember being an equal part of the universe. So, that information is kept separate from me.

The illusion that is "I" must come to an end? Who told you that? God didn't start the universe just to end it.

Everything is already with the One? Many children can live in a big house but they are still individuals.

Borg is not "I". Borg is "we". "I" is individualistic. "We" is many.

The Absolute is playing itself as numerous "I's". He is, but who told you He would stop?

I'm not pretending anything. How can I pretend to NOT be something I can't remember?

 

[godnotgod]

The illusion serves it's purpose.

Suffering is the illusion's purpose?....not!

Show you were separation exists? I don't remember being God. I don't remember being an equal part of the universe. So, that information is kept separate from me.

No. You are keeping it separate by refusing to awaken from the dream you are dreaming, which is this fictional life lived by 'I'.

The illusion that is "I" must come to an end? Who told you that? God didn't start the universe just to end it.

The Universe does not end because the illusion that is 'I' ends. 'I' ends when your true nature awakens. Your true nature is none other than the divine.

Everything is already with the One? Many children can live in a big house but they are still individuals.

They can live as individuals if they wish, but at the base of their existence, they are all One. Those who are awakened individual realize their oneness, while the unawakened still think they are separate selves, not realizing that all of them are manifestations of the One.

Borg is not "I". Borg is "we". "I" is individualistic. "We" is many.

To realize Oneness does not mean to initiate Borg; it means to realize one's true nature, rather than to live the fiction of separation. Borg is hypnosis and mind control. Oneness is freedom from the shackles of the fictional 'I'.

The Absolute is playing itself as numerous "I's". He is, but who told you He would stop?

Death is the unmasking of the particular 'I' that The Absolute is now playing, unless you awaken before death. That is what the Buddha achieved. Most of us never have a clue.

Where do you get the notion that God is a 'He'?

I'm not pretending anything. How can I pretend to NOT be something I can't remember?

You can't remember because your true nature is so well hidden that you don't know it even exists, thinking instead that 'I' is the real you. That is how well the facade is made. Why is it that you think you can make God an object of your mind? Your mind of 'I', of the limited self you call 'an individual', cannot encapsulate the Infinite that is God into an object. The moment you do, you have killed God.

 

[Super Universe]

Suffering is the illusion's purpose?....not!



No. You are keeping it separate by refusing to awaken from the dream you are dreaming, which is this fictional life lived by 'I'.



The Universe does not end because the illusion that is 'I' ends. 'I' ends when your true nature awakens. Your true nature is none other than the divine.



They can live as individuals if they wish, but at the base of their existence, they are all One. Those who are awakened individual realize their oneness, while the unawakened still think they are separate selves, not realizing that all of them are manifestations of the One.



To realize Oneness does not mean to initiate Borg; it means to realize one's true nature, rather than to live the fiction of separation. Borg is hypnosis and mind control. Oneness is freedom from the shackles of the fictional 'I'.



Death is the unmasking of the particular 'I' that The Absolute is now playing, unless you awaken before death. That is what the Buddha achieved. Most of us never have a clue.

Where do you get the notion that God is a 'He'?



You can't remember because your true nature is so well hidden that you don't know it even exists, thinking instead that 'I' is the real you. That is how well the facade is made. Why is it that you think you can make God an object of your mind? Your mind of 'I', of the limited self you call 'an individual', cannot encapsulate the Infinite that is God into an object. The moment you do, you have killed God.

Suffering is the purpose of the universe? All life is not suffering. You just choose to focus on suffering.

When Buddha held up the flower to his class, was that causing them to suffer?

I'm refusing to awaken from the dream? If we have the ability to simply choose to get out of the dream then how come people have to jump off bridges or put bullets in their heads to stop the dream?

My true nature is the divine? The soul is divine but it needs experience to develop. Mine must be very developed.

At the base of our existence, all are one? All come from the One, and, we are all within the One, but we retain our individuality. We stay unique.

Realizing one's true nature is fine but that nature is not to return to our home just to be blended together.

Death is the unmasking of the "I"? Not at first it isn't. There are levels. The universe is like a school system. It takes time, learning, and experience to ascend.

Buddha was enlightened? Enlightened to a degree.

Where do I get the notion that God is a He? Because that is the definition provided. When God created other beings He defined Himself as Father and another as Son, and another as Mother Spirit.

 

[godnotgod]

Suffering is the purpose of the universe? All life is not suffering. You just choose to focus on suffering.

You said that the illusion 'serves its purpose'. The only thing illusion creates is suffering. There is joy in life, and because there is, there is suffering. Once this relationship is seen and understood, one then makes them a study, and focuses instead on Absolute Joy, which has no opposite.

When Buddha held up the flower to his class, was that causing them to suffer?

He was showing them something to see intuitively, not to think about. That seeing is the pathway transcendent of both joy and suffering.

I'm refusing to awaken from the dream? If we have the ability to simply choose to get out of the dream then how come people have to jump off bridges or put bullets in their heads to stop the dream?

Because they think that 'I' is real.

My true nature is the divine? The soul is divine but it needs experience to develop. Mine must be very developed.

Your true nature is before all experience and conditioning. It is Unborn, Uncreated, Unconditioned.

At the base of our existence, all are one? All come from the One, and, we are all within the One, but we retain our individuality. We stay unique.

It is just a temporal existence, which ends either upon death, or upon realization of its illusory quality, and the awakening of your true nature. It's just the character the One is currently playing as 'you', which 'you' think 'you' are living and is real. You are not living life; life is living you. There is no such thing as the 'doer'.

Realizing one's true nature is fine but that nature is not to return to our home just to be blended together.

All snowflakes eventually return to their original source, which is water.

Death is the unmasking of the "I"? Not at first it isn't. There are levels. The universe is like a school system. It takes time, learning, and experience to ascend.

Death is the end of that particular character. There may be rebirth as a different character to play and dance another day. Then again, there is the school of Sudden Enlightenment.

Buddha was enlightened? Enlightened to a degree.

Not at all. If you read the literature, you will see that the Buddha attained the highest state possible, Supreme Enlightenment. That is why he can be called 'The Buddha'.

BTW, did you know that 'THE Buddha' was also 'A' buddha?

Where do I get the notion that God is a He? Because that is the definition provided. When God created other beings He defined Himself as Father and another as Son, and another as Mother Spirit.

Which is not your direct experience of God, but only what is written by other men, and which you have decided to believe as true for whatever reason. As a result, 'He' is most likely an egoic projection of the male Jewish patriarchal culture.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

There are no 'items composed of matter'. There is only energy appearing as such. We know that now from the latest findings in Quantum Physics, which tells us that all 'particles' in the Universe are standing waves, which are due to fluctuations in the Quantum and Higgs Fields.

Now... ask yourself what matters more - that you think this way and have understanding of this, or that you comb your hair with the correct implement - comb vs. jellyfish? According to what you are saying, all you're doing is raking energy through energy - so what does it matter which "form" of energy you use? Come one now... why choose a comb over a jellyfish? Can you faithfully answer within the context of your "we're all energy, man" ideas? That is the level at which I am speaking about the distinction being made. All other facets of reality surrounding that level are of no consequence as they will not help you to make sure you don't comb your hair with jellyfish - or do something equally detrimental to your well-being.[/QUOTE]

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You have things backwards.

No... no... you only HOPE that I do.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I did not say it was our personal consciousness which creates material reality; personal consciousness is 'I', and 'I' is an illusion. I said it is Consciousness perse. The Big Bang was an event in Consciousness, without an agent of Consciousenss.

BTW, no, there is no sound if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it. For sound to occur, a receptor is required. There are sound waves, but no sound.

Obviously you didn't read what I wrote very well, as I referred to the fact that "sound" implies the receiving instrument (ear), but that the vibrations are what still exist and would be interpreted as sound were one present to do the interpreting. Honestly, if you aren't going to read, there is no reason for me to write.

 

[Super Universe]

You said that the illusion 'serves its purpose'. The only thing illusion creates is suffering. There is joy in life, and because there is, there is suffering. Once this relationship is seen and understood, one then makes them a study, and focuses instead on Absolute Joy, which has no opposite.



He was showing them something to see intuitively, not to think about. That seeing is the pathway transcendent of both joy and suffering.



Because they think that 'I' is real.



Your true nature is before all experience and conditioning. It is Unborn, Uncreated, Unconditioned.



It is just a temporal existence, which ends either upon death, or upon realization of its illusory quality, and the awakening of your true nature. It's just the character the One is currently playing as 'you', which 'you' think 'you' are living and is real. You are not living life; life is living you. There is no such thing as the 'doer'.



All snowflakes eventually return to their original source, which is water.



Death is the end of that particular character. There may be rebirth as a different character to play and dance another day. Then again, there is the school of Sudden Enlightenment.



Not at all. If you read the literature, you will see that the Buddha attained the highest state possible, Supreme Enlightenment. That is why he can be called 'The Buddha'.

BTW, did you know that 'THE Buddha' was also 'A' buddha?



Which is not your direct experience of God, but only what is written by other men, and which you have decided to believe as true for whatever reason. As a result, 'He' is most likely an egoic projection of the male Jewish patriarchal culture.

The only thing illusion creates is suffering? You think suffering exists because happiness exists. As if God can only be two emotions, one or the other. My take on Buddha was that he was trying to get people to stop complaining about suffering and accept it since it obviously wasn't going to go away. There will come a time, maybe in 1,000 years, when there is no more suffering on the earth. We're not there yet.

Buddha was showing them the flower to get them to see intuitively? How do you see without thinking about what you are seeing? Are you talking about some kind of telepathy?

People think that the "I" is real? The universe is a hologram, or, a movie and God is the movie projector. We are characters in the movie but because we are in the movie everything is real to us.

My true nature is before all experience? It is but experience is the purpose of the universe. I'm here to learn. I don't want to forget what I've learned, some of the lessons were very difficult.

The character the One is playing is me? Correct, but the character continues on and on and on.

All snowflakes return to water? Not on Pluto they don't.

Death is the end? Death is the end of kindergarten and the beginning of first grade.

Buddha attained the highest state possible? When a prophet appears and people adopt new ideas they tend to elevate that prophet. The Jews exaggerated when they wrote that Moses could turn his staff into a snake and that he brought forth water from the rock. The Christians exaggerated when they wrote that Mary was a virgin and that Jesus was actually God.

The books of the bible do not provide me with direct experience of God? No, they don't. I haven't explained to you what direct experience of God I have. My experiences are my experiences. Your experiences are your experiences. There is nothing that will ever get me to doubt that God exists. As for the bible, I have many doubts.

 

[godnotgod]

Obviously you didn't read what I wrote very well, as I referred to the fact that "sound" implies the receiving instrument (ear), but that the vibrations are what still exist and would be interpreted as sound were one present to do the interpreting. Honestly, if you aren't going to read, there is no reason for me to write.

Well, as it turns out, I did indeed read what you said. However, the riddle states: "...if no one is there to hear it...." So if no one is present, neither is a receptor, and so, in keeping with your logic, no, there is no sound.

 

[godnotgod]

Now... ask yourself what matters more - that you think this way and have understanding of this, or that you comb your hair with the correct implement - comb vs. jellyfish? According to what you are saying, all you're doing is raking energy through energy - so what does it matter which "form" of energy you use? Come one now... why choose a comb over a jellyfish? Can you faithfully answer within the context of your "we're all energy, man" ideas? That is the level at which I am speaking about the distinction being made. All other facets of reality surrounding that level are of no consequence as they will not help you to make sure you don't comb your hair with jellyfish - or do something equally detrimental to your well-being.

[/QUOTE]

Form matters because it must interface with other forms, in this case, in order to achieve the desired result. You CALL it 'comb', but you are referring to its form, and not its 'thingness', since no such thing exists in reality. What we have here is an energy-form, as in wave-form. The entire Universe is composed of energy, manifesting as form, which we call 'things'. A whirlpool, for example is not a thing; it is only the action of whirling water.

 

[godnotgod]

The only thing illusion creates is suffering? You think suffering exists because happiness exists. As if God can only be two emotions, one or the other. My take on Buddha was that he was trying to get people to stop complaining about suffering and accept it since it obviously wasn't going to go away. There will come a time, maybe in 1,000 years, when there is no more suffering on the earth. We're not there yet.

If you think an illusion is real, and then act upon it as a means of achieving happiness, you will only suffer. That is pretty much the lot of mankind, as the current sorry state of the world is testament to.

Relative suffering exists because relative joy exists. This is what most people refer to as 'the ups and downs' of life. The one cannot exist without the other. You fall in love with someone. That is relative joy. Then she drops you in the middle of the relationship. You suffer as a result of your loss of joy. After a number of these cycles, you stop and seek another path. That leads you to Absolute Joy, which does not go away, and which has no opposite. This is the enlightened state.

You're wrong about the Buddha: he found the path of freedom from suffering, and wanted to show others how to achieve it as well, out of compassion for their suffering. This way is called The Four Noble Truths and The Eightfold Path. Look it up. Suffering for most is due to ignorance. Enlightenment is the cure. There is no time to attain freedom from suffering other than in the present.

Buddha was showing them the flower to get them to see intuitively? How do you see without thinking about what you are seeing? Are you talking about some kind of telepathy?

Apparently you have not yet learned to turn off the mind and its constant chatter, so that seeing, via pure conscious attention, is the only process going on. Try meditation and breath control. When we think, we form concepts about the way things are; when we just see, concepts are no longer in the way, and we are able to see things as they actually are. If you remember the story of Buddha and the flower, one of his listeners became instantly enlightened by SEEING what the Buddha meant by holding up the flower. Enlightenment always comes via seeing, and not via thinking.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Well, as it turns out, I did indeed read what you said. However, the riddle states: "...if no one is there to hear it...." So if no one is present, neither is a receptor, and so, in keeping with your logic, no, there is no sound.

Semantics is what sustains the riddle in the first place. The properties of the matter altered are the same regardless if there is anyone there to actually perceive it or not. Same with the universe. The properties of the energies involved at any given moment are the same for all those perceiving - even if they perceive them in completely different ways. And yes, my body and mind are all part of the substance being perceived (or not perceived). So what? This changes nothing about my ability to discern what is what when forms of that matter and energy are placed in front of me. To make out the differences in what I am perceiving and make choices as to what is beneficial or detrimental. It makes no difference that I acknowledge that it is all part of the same "universe". That fact will never help me make the correct decision - and at times this process is vital to carrying on in my own version of "perception".