The JW's claim Jesus was not son of Adam.

[LightofTruth]

It is useless trying to tell you anything.....just read what it says. Jesus needed credential to be able to prove that he was the Messiah. His credentials came from his natural mother who bore the seed as a direct result of God's spirit creating the perfect life within her womb, and the lineage of his adoptive father Joseph who was a son of David and Abraham.

Mary and Joseph and perhaps a few close relatives knew about the circumstances of Jesus' birth but it was not broadcast publicly. Joseph was accepted as Jesus natural father by those in his community, but scripture tells us that Jesus was not the son of Joseph biologically. Jesus had all the rights of an adopted son. He was legally the son of Joseph, but he was not related to him biologically. Do you understand?

The Scripture tells us that the seed she bore was the seed of Abraham and David. That's way Jesus is a son of Abraham and David. He was also said to be the seed of the women in Genesis.
That tells me that Jesus was of the same nature as Abraham and David and his mother Mary and also of Adam.

I need to go to a meeting. I'd like to continue this discussion later.

 

[rational experiences]

The Scripture tells us that the seed she bore was the seed of Abraham and David. That's way Jesus is a son of Abraham and David. He was also said to be the seed of the women in Genesis.
That tells me that Jesus was of the same nature as Abraham and David and his mother Mary and also of Adam.

I need to go to a meeting. I'd like to continue this discussion later.

Remove humans altogether in your thesis. Which is what you first theory factually.

No thesis

What you ignore as a theist self natural human bio life form being present. Doing all the reasoning as consciousness.

Theists are liars.

A human is telling all the stories self present. You cannot pretend you don't exist for your thoughts also would not exist.

Lying means not using any fact truthfully.

Your sperm is called by a human male to be seed. Pi O and Phi O theism.

Males in human life self idolised self image. As you brain irradiated life and formed unnatural feedback in water mass loss.

Irradiation effect.

O pi and Phi used as factoring to remove God mass in a conversion caused that effect. You became self possesed by your own theism as you encoded it unnaturally in a machine conversion when science never existed.

You were fake transmitting temple machine to temple machine using pyramid water cooling mechanism that failed to keep transmitters cooled.

Natural did. In a vacuum cool burning gases.

Why you said Adam was a man but Adam Adam man and woman to try to stop you from lying was written to force you to think upon the statement itself as a question.

Questioning stops the false thinker to reason.

What AI self possession machine science cause was taught for.

 

[Deeje]

The Scripture tells us that the seed she bore was the seed of Abraham and David. That's way Jesus is a son of Abraham and David.

According to the Law, Jesus was the son of Joseph, because they knew of no other way to conceive a child. Joseph himself was going to divorce Mary because he thought she had committed fornication....but God allayed his fears and told him that the child was conceived by holy spirit...not by natural intercourse. Mary's virginity was intact. Joseph took Mary as his wife, but he did not have relations with her until after Jesus was born. (Matthew 1:25) Jesus was then joined by a large family of siblings, both brothers and sisters who were the natural children of Joseph and Mary. Jesus was "the Son of God", not the son of Joseph and therefore not a son of Adam.

He was also said to be the seed of the women in Genesis.

Yes, Jesus was featured in the first prophesy (Genesis 3:15) as the one who would suffer a heal wound, but who would then deliver a head wound to the serpent......but his identity was unknown until his role as Messiah was fully outlined. The "sacred mystery (secret"...Colossians 1:26) unfolded over time as more details about Jesus' role were understood. Before then, no one fully understood who the players were in Genesis 3:15 or exactly what it meant, or how it would play out. We can see it clearly now.

I'd like to continue this discussion later.

I really don't understand why you want to pursue this discussion since you don't seem to agree on anything I say and I am not about to abandon 50 years of study to adopt your view....

 

[rational experiences]

The old testimonials after the fact of all occurrences. Life body sacrificed it's teachings.

Is not pre history. As a string theory.

DNA genesis is a fully formed adult man human who assesses a small body of cells and gives it information.

As a human fully formed.
Full bodied.
Natural.

Claiming status falsely . Lying.

As a man self being defined man by his seed sperm.

As he cannot claim ovary as that cell is owned by female. Sperm however does not continue human life.

Science is a liar. States it is everyday by falsifying information.

Knowing Jesus as jesus was after Jesus occurred.

Jesus not the old.

Jesus a new attack was compared to relate by identification to the old attack.

But could not own the same father as a father only lives for one hundred years.

Io seph. Sephiroth lying effect of cause sacrificed change manifested as the change. God heavens not the sephiroth.said gas spirit coat of many colours was sacrificed gases in mantle heavens coat,.........cloud plus blue light sky in returned ice seasonal conditions was God heavens. Which belonged to God stone gas spatial heavens history.

Said female ovary healed in her womb so male in DNA healed could be reborn as a medical appraisal about natural life conditions. Re or i.e. ovah.

Why they said gas light colors seen UFO effect did not give life. God heavens supported healing.

So God by heavens supported female womb ovary to heal. Was immaculately returned to own cell change to allow a non sacrificed male baby to return in genetics.

The male personally was not magically healed the teaching returned in life the actual teaching. Why they said coloured gases are not the heavenly gas support of life in holy baptism water.

 

[LightofTruth]

According to the Law, Jesus was the son of Joseph, because they knew of no other way to conceive a child. Joseph himself was going to divorce Mary because he thought she had committed fornication....but God allayed his fears and told him that the child was conceived by holy spirit...not by natural intercourse. Mary's virginity was intact. Joseph took Mary as his wife, but he did not have relations with her until after Jesus was born. (Matthew 1:25) Jesus was then joined by a large family of siblings, both brothers and sisters who were the natural children of Joseph and Mary. Jesus was "the Son of God", not the son of Joseph and therefore not a son of Adam.

What then does it mean he was "son of man". And if "son of God' how is he "son of Abraham".

Yes, Jesus was featured in the first prophesy (Genesis 3:15) as the one who would suffer a heal wound, but who would then deliver a head wound to the serpent......but his identity was unknown until his role as Messiah was fully outlined. The "sacred mystery (secret"...Colossians 1:26) unfolded over time as more details about Jesus' role were understood. Before then, no one fully understood who the players were in Genesis 3:15 or exactly what it meant, or how it would play out. We can see it clearly now.



I really don't understand why you want to pursue this discussion since you don't seem to agree on anything I say and I am not about to abandon 50 years of study to adopt your view....

What does it mean Jesus was the seed/son of Abraham?

Doesn't that mean that he descended from Abraham?

Wouldn't a son of Abraham have the same nature as Abraham?

Heb 2:16 For surely he is not concerned with angels, but he is concerned with the descendants of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Therefore he was obligated to be made like his brothers in all respects, in order that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in the things relating to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that which he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

Jesus himself was a descendent of Abraham. And therefore he had to be made like his brothers in all respects. Doesn't that include being of the same flesh and blood nature as his brothers? Certainly it does. Else they wouldn't be his brothers.

Oh, and check this out!

He himself suffered being tempted the same way all the rest are tempted!

Wow! how are all the rest tempted?

James tells us exactly how they are tempted....by OUR OWN DESIRES!

 

[LightofTruth]

I'm posting the following from the JW website:

"Can we say that Paul the Apostle had sinful flesh? Of course. Would we say that possessing sinful flesh was a defect? Again, yes–after all, sinful flesh is not a good and holy thing. If that is the case then if Jesus’ flesh was “sinful,” then he would have possessed a defect (unless you want to say his “sinful flesh” was not part of what he is). But that is a problem because Deuteronomy 17:1 says, “You shall not sacrifice to the Lord your God an ox or a sheep which has a blemish or any defect, for that is a detestable thing to the Lord your God.” Therefore, if Jesus possessed sinful flesh, he had a defect. That would mean he could not be a proper sacrifice for sins."

The JW's admit that Paul had sinful flesh, but they say Jesus did not.

So, what does the Bible say?

First I'm quoting the JW Bible:

Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, (Heb 2:14)

Where do the JW's get the word 'similarity' from? It's their own made up word.

Here's the real meaning of the word:

μετέχω
metechō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be or become partaker
2) to partake
Part of Speech: verb

μετέχω metechō 8x
to share in, partake, 1Co_9:10; 1Co_9:12; 1Co_10:17; 1Co_10:21; 1Co_10:30; Heb_2:14; Heb_5:13;
to be a member of, Heb_7:13* partake; share.

Now, look at every other translation, because they get it RIGHT!

(DRB) Therefore because the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner hath been partaker of the same: that, through death, he might destroy him who had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil:

(ISV) Therefore, since the children have flesh and blood, he himself also shared the same things, so that by his death he might destroy the one who has the power of death (that is, the devil)

(LEB) Therefore, since the children share in blood and flesh, he also in like manner shared in these same things, in order that through death he could destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

(LITV) Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might cause to cease the one having the power of death, that is, the devil;

(LSV) Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself also took part of the same in like manner, that through death He might destroy him having the power of death—that is, the Devil—

(OJB) Therefore, als (since) the yeladim share in the basar vadahm and Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach likewise shared in the same things, that through the histalkus of his mavet he might destroy the one having power over mavet, that is, Hasatan [see Gn ch 3],

(RV) Since then the children are sharers in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same; that through death he might bring to nought him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

(YLT) Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death—that is, the devil—

Every good translation uses the correct meaning. "shared in", "partook of" except the JW bible

So you see how the JW have deceived their followers by TWISTING and CHANGING words of the Bible to suit their own false doctrines?

The writer of Hebrews is saying that Jesus PARTOOK of the SAME flesh as the rest of the children (of God).

Now, if Paul's flesh was sinful, and Jesus partook of the same, then Jesus' flesh was sinful.

 

[Deeje]

How did I know that you were going to push this envelope....? Because you only see what you want to see....

What then does it mean he was "son of man". And if "son of God' how is he "son of Abraham".

"Son of man" means that he was human. To become mankind's redeemer, he had to be 100% human. He existed in heaven before his human birth, and after completing his mission, he returned to the spirit realm after his resurrection.
He was the "Son of God" before his earthly sojourn, and remained God's "Logos" (spokesman) throughout his existence, interacting with humans before his time on earth, whilst he was in human form, and after he returned to heaven. He has always been at God's right hand.

Legally (under Jewish law) Jesus was a son of Joseph and Mary, both of whom had genealogies going back to David and Abraham. That makes him a legal "son of Abraham".....born of a Jewish mother and being accepted as the legal son of Joseph. But he was not biologically related to Joseph at all, as you have been shown many times.

What does it mean Jesus was the seed/son of Abraham?

Doesn't that mean that he descended from Abraham?

Wouldn't a son of Abraham have the same nature as Abraham?

Jesus was a legal son of Abraham.....but not a biological son...let that sink in.

Heb 2:16 For surely he is not concerned with angels, but he is concerned with the descendants of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Therefore he was obligated to be made like his brothers in all respects, in order that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in the things relating to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that which he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

Jesus himself was a descendent of Abraham. And therefore he had to be made like his brothers in all respects. Doesn't that include being of the same flesh and blood nature as his brothers? Certainly it does. Else they wouldn't be his brothers.

He was human in every respect...flesh and blood like we are, with all the normal human emotions and traits....but he had no sin nature....because he was from God not Joseph. He had no defect of sin like Adam passed onto his children. (Romans 5:12) You are just not getting this...are you?

Oh, and check this out!

He himself suffered being tempted the same way all the rest are tempted!

Wow! how are all the rest tempted?

James tells us exactly how they are tempted....by OUR OWN DESIRES!

I can see how excited you are...but you are dead wrong IMO. Jesus could not pay the redemption price if he was sinful like us.

Psalm 49:6-8....
"Those who are trusting in their wealth
And who boast about their great riches,
7 None of them can ever redeem a brother
Or give to God a ransom for him,
8 (The ransom price for their life is so precious
That it is always beyond their reach)"

The redemption price for the human race was higher than any human could pay....that is why God sent Jesus from heaven.....if Jesus was a sinful human, then the ransom is not paid, and we are forever lost in sin and death.

Only an unblemished animal was offered for sacrifice. It could have no defect because it pictured the perfect flesh and blood of Christ. Do you not see the pictorial representation?

The JW's admit that Paul had sinful flesh, but they say Jesus did not.

So, what does the Bible say?

First I'm quoting the JW Bible:

Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, (Heb 2:14)

Where do the JW's get the word 'similarity' from? It's their own made up word.

Read all those verses again and then read the NWT's translation again......it isn't saying what you think it is.

Now, look at every other translation, because they get it RIGHT!

Yes they all get it right like the NWT does.

(DRB) Therefore because the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner hath been partaker of the same: that, through death, he might destroy him who had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil:

(ISV) Therefore, since the children have flesh and blood, he himself also shared the same things, so that by his death he might destroy the one who has the power of death (that is, the devil)

(LEB) Therefore, since the children share in blood and flesh, he also in like manner shared in these same things, in order that through death he could destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

(LITV) Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might cause to cease the one having the power of death, that is, the devil;

(LSV) Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself also took part of the same in like manner, that through death He might destroy him having the power of death—that is, the Devil—

(OJB) Therefore, als (since) the yeladim share in the basar vadahm and Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach likewise shared in the same things, that through the histalkus of his mavet he might destroy the one having power over mavet, that is, Hasatan [see Gn ch 3],

(RV) Since then the children are sharers in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same; that through death he might bring to nought him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

(YLT) Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death—that is, the devil—

Every good translation uses the correct meaning. "shared in", "partook of" except the JW bible

What are you missing in your haste to be "right"? What does "in like manner" mean? Can you read? Read them all again and see that the NWT says the same thing. "Similarly" means "in like manner". You are jumping up and down over nothing.

So you see how the JW have deceived their followers by TWISTING and CHANGING words of the Bible to suit their own false doctrines?

No, all I see is you misinterpreting what scripture says to fit your own view of things.

The writer of Hebrews is saying that Jesus PARTOOK of the SAME flesh as the rest of the children (of God).

Now, if Paul's flesh was sinful, and Jesus partook of the same, then Jesus' flesh was sinful.

Jesus was the same flesh as Adam was at his creation...a perfect specimen with no sin. But he did not remain perfect due to his disobedience. Jesus offered his perfect life to pay the redemption price of Adam's children. But I am not confident that you will see the error in your thinking....

Oh well...I tried.

 

[LightofTruth]

If Paul's flesh is sinful flesh as the JW's confess and Jesus partook of the same flesh it means Jesus shared the same sinful flesh as Paul.

And when it says "the word became flesh" it means the word became sinful flesh.

And when John says that anyone who does not confess that Jesus had come in the flesh to be anti-Christ, he means that anyone who does not confess that Jesus had come in the same flesh as the rest of man was an anti-Christ.

Why would they be an anti-Christ'?

Because they would rob Jesus of his glory in overcoming the world. All that is in the world is the lust of the eyes and the lust of the felsh

How did I know that you were going to push this envelope....? Because you only see what you want to see....



"Son of man" means that he was human. To become mankind's redeemer, he had to be 100% human. He existed in heaven before his human birth, and after completing his mission, he returned to the spirit realm after his resurrection.
He was the "Son of God" before his earthly sojourn, and remained God's "Logos" (spokesman) throughout his existence, interacting with humans before his time on earth, whilst he was in human form, and after he returned to heaven. He has always been at God's right hand.

Legally (under Jewish law) Jesus was a son of Joseph and Mary, both of whom had genealogies going back to David and Abraham. That makes him a legal "son of Abraham".....born of a Jewish mother and being accepted as the legal son of Joseph. But he was not biologically related to Joseph at all, as you have been shown many times.



Jesus was a legal son of Abraham.....but not a biological son...let that sink in.



He was human in every respect...flesh and blood like we are, with all the normal human emotions and traits....but he had no sin nature....because he was from God not Joseph. He had no defect of sin like Adam passed onto his children. (Romans 5:12) You are just not getting this...are you?



I can see how excited you are...but you are dead wrong IMO. Jesus could not pay the redemption price if he was sinful like us.

Psalm 49:6-8....
"Those who are trusting in their wealth
And who boast about their great riches,
7 None of them can ever redeem a brother
Or give to God a ransom for him,
8 (The ransom price for their life is so precious
That it is always beyond their reach)"

The redemption price for the human race was higher than any human could pay....that is why God sent Jesus from heaven.....if Jesus was a sinful human, then the ransom is not paid, and we are forever lost in sin and death.

Only an unblemished animal was offered for sacrifice. It could have no defect because it pictured the perfect flesh and blood of Christ. Do you not see the pictorial representation?



Read all those verses again and then read the NWT's translation again......it isn't saying what you think it is.



Yes they all get it right like the NWT does.



What are you missing in your haste to be "right"? What does "in like manner" mean? Can you read? Read them all again and see that the NWT says the same thing. "Similarly" means "in like manner". You are jumping up and down over nothing.



No, all I see is you misinterpreting what scripture says to fit your own view of things.



Jesus was the same flesh as Adam was at his creation...a perfect specimen with no sin. But he did not remain perfect due to his disobedience. Jesus offered his perfect life to pay the redemption price of Adam's children. But I am not confident that you will see the error in your thinking....

Oh well...I tried.

"He was human in every respect...flesh and blood like we are, with all the normal human emotions and traits....but he had no sin nature....because he was from God not Joseph. He had no defect of sin like Adam passed onto his children. (Romans 5:12) You are just not getting this...are you?"

Ok, so I noticed how you SKIPPED over the part about Jesus being tempted in all ways as we are. Believe me, I understand how these "christian" sects work. They always skip over certain comments they can't handle. In this case your lack of commenting destroys the context of what the writer is saying. But you can't see that.

The part about Jesus being tempted like us and the very reason he can be a merciful and faithful High Priest is precisely because he shared THE SAME FLESH as Paul, and JOHN, and PETER, and YOU and ME!

Ok, so Jesus was the same flesh as us, and the same flesh as Adam. And you say he shared all the normal human emotions and traits. Would that also included desires of the flesh?

If Jesus has the same flesh as we, then in order to be tempted as we, he had to have desires as we.

Let me show it to you again because you conveniently passed over it and it's very import in the context.

Jas 1:13 Let no one who is being tempted say, “I am tempted from God,” for God is not tempted by evils, and Himself tempts no one,
Jas 1:14 but each one is tempted, being led away and enticed by his own desires,
Jas 1:15 afterward the desire having conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin having been perfected, brings forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not be led astray, my beloved brothers;

Listen what Paul says about the flesh he has which is the same flesh as YOU, and ME, and JESUS and ADAM.

Rom 7:14 for we have known that the Law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by sin;
Rom 7:15 for that which I work, I do not acknowledge; for not what I will, this I practice, but what I hate, this I do.
Rom 7:16 And if what I do not will, this I do, I consent to the Law that [it is] good,
Rom 7:17 and now it is no longer I that work it, but sin dwelling in me,
Rom 7:18 for I have known that there does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and I do not find to work that which is right,
Rom 7:19 for the good that I will, I do not do; but the evil that I do not will, this I practice.
Rom 7:20 And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but sin that is dwelling in me.
Rom 7:21 I find, then, the law, that when I desire to do what is right, the evil is present with me,
Rom 7:22 for I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man,
Rom 7:23 and I behold another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin that [is] in my members.
Rom 7:24 A wretched man I [am]! Who will deliver me out of the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed serve the Law of God with the mind, and with the flesh, the law of sin.

Paul recognizes that sin dwells in his flesh which James explains is where temptation comes from and sin or actual transgression begins. Paul is saying that when he sins it is no longer he that does it but the sin dwelling in him. In his flesh.

Paul here, like elsewhere, personifies sin as a MASTER by saying it is no longer him but Sin that dwells in his flesh warring against the law of his mind and that that sin is always present with him in his flesh.

So, the FACT that Jesus was tempted to actually transgress the law by having the same desires of the flesh, proves his flesh was the same flesh as PAUL's and everyone else.

When the Bible says "he did no sin" or was "without sin" it is NOT speaking of his flesh but the fact that he never gave into the flesh's sinful desires even though his flesh had them. He conquered it. if his flesh did not have desires like Paul's flesh, then Jesus' flesh would have been a different flesh. Which clearly it was not.

Now, lets look at Romans 8

Rom 8:3 for what the Law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 that the righteousness of the Law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh, mind the things of the flesh; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;
Rom 8:6 for the mind of the flesh [is] death, and the mind of the Spirit—life and peace;
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the Law of God it does not subject itself,
Rom 8:8 for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.
Rom 8:9 And you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you; and if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ—this one is not His;
Rom 8:10 and if Christ [is] in you, the body, indeed, [is] dead because of sin, and the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness,
Rom 8:11 and if the Spirit of Him who raised up Jesus out of the dead dwells in you, He who raised up the Christ out of the dead will also quicken your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.

The ONLY way the sin which dwells in the flesh of man could be condemned is if Jesus was in the likeness of that SAME FLESH. God could NOT condemn that flesh if Jesus did not share it!

 

[LightofTruth]

"Can we say that Paul the Apostle had sinful flesh? Of course. Would we say that possessing sinful flesh was a defect? Again, yes–after all, sinful flesh is not a good and holy thing. If that is the case then if Jesus’ flesh was “sinful,” then he would have possessed a defect (unless you want to say his “sinful flesh” was not part of what he is). But that is a problem because Deuteronomy 17:1 says, “You shall not sacrifice to the Lord your God an ox or a sheep which has a blemish or any defect, for that is a detestable thing to the Lord your God.” Therefore, if Jesus possessed sinful flesh, he had a defect. That would mean he could not be a proper sacrifice for sins."

In the above quote from the JW's literature they acknowledge Paul had sinful flesh(we all do) but they deny that Jesus' flesh was the same flesh as Paul's and the rest of us mankind by saying Jesus' flesh was not sinful flesh. Their reasoning is that if Jesus' flesh was the same as Paul's then Jesus could not be a proper sacrifice.

Lets' think about that for a moment. The Jews had to select the animal by physically examining it for any faults it may have. If they were satisfied that the animal had no visible evidence of any faults then the animal was acceptable for sacrifice.

Just before Jesus was sacrificed, Pontius Pilate interrogated and thoroughly examined Jesus. and after his examination of Jesus, Pilate said "I find no fault in this man". Pilate could find no fault in Jesus and no reason to kill him.

Luk 23:13 And Pilate having called together the chief priests, and the rulers, and the people,
Luk 23:14 said to them, “You brought this Man to me as perverting the people, and behold, I having examined [Him] before you, found no fault in this Man in those things you bring forward against Him;

The reason Jesus was the perfect sacrifice was first of all that he personally committed no sin, and second of all that he be of the same flesh nature as the all the rest. Because if he was not like all the rest then God could not condemn that sin which dwells in the flesh of all men, by the desires of the flesh, when Jesus was sacrificed.

So, the JW's toss out the plain teaching that Jesus' flesh was the same as Paul's and that Jesus was tempted in the way we are (through the desire of the flesh)because they claim he would not have been the proper sacrifice? He was the proper sacrifice precisely because he was of the same nature as the rest but did not sin in spite of it. "I find no fault in this man".

 

[LightofTruth]

What are you missing in your haste to be "right"? What does "in like manner" mean? Can you read? Read them all again and see that the NWT says the same thing. "Similarly" means "in like manner". You are jumping up and down over nothing.



No, all I see is you misinterpreting what scripture says to fit your own view of things.

That was my mistake. I had been reading what your literature had to say about Jesus being made in the "likeness of sinful flesh". And I recall finding something that suggested "likeness" meant something other than being the same sinful flesh. When actually "likeness of sinful flesh" means it was not unlike sinful flesh.

Here's something else I found in your literature:

"Satan the tempter well knew how humans could be influenced through their fleshly senses, and so, in seeking to cause Jesus to break integrity with his God, he suggested to the hungry Son of God that he draw upon the miraculous power of his Father for the appeasement of his appetite. Would Jesus now mind the flesh, that is, pay attention to its demands with a view to obeying it? Or, would he mind the spirit, that is, pay attention to spiritual direction from his Father in heaven? To Satan’s chagrin he chose the latter, declaring: “Man must live, not on bread alone,"

This is very good! It shows that Jesus was indeed made in the likeness of sinful flesh(not unlike it). it recognizes that Jesus was tempted in the same way as the rest of us. Through the flesh and its desires! Just as James says. "drawn away and enticed by our OWN desires". The flesh demands to have what it wants and Jesus had to deny it its demands and obey his Father.

Jesus was the same flesh as Adam was at his creation...a perfect specimen with no sin. But he did not remain perfect due to his disobedience. Jesus offered his perfect life to pay the redemption price of Adam's children. But I am not confident that you will see the error in your thinking....

Oh well...I tried.

Adam was not a sinner until he sinned. When the law, which is made weak by the flesh, was introduced to Adam then his fleshly desires took over and he sinned. His flesh was not without the ability to have its demands met. And its demands were met when Adam ate the fruit.

If we compare what your literature says about Jesus' temptation by his own desires (Satan was not the temptation, he was the tempter)and the demands of his flesh, we can see the same thing happening to Adam and Eve. Eve desired the fruit because it was pleasant to the eye, good for food, and DESIRED to make one wise. These things come from the fleshly body and mind.
These things happened to Adam and Eve and to Jesus and every human being to ever walk this earth.

 

[LightofTruth]

Jesus was a legal son of Abraham.....but not a biological son...let that sink in.

Not that this effects whether or not Jesus was of the same flesh as Paul and the rest of mankind (he was), that's already been established. But are you saying that Jesus is not descended from Abraham or David?

 

[Deeje]

Good bye @LightofTruth it is useless trying to get anything through to you. You are so busy trying to prove yourself “right” that you have missed every point given to you. I give up.

You are out on your own private limb with no one who agrees with your interpretation. If Jesus was a son of Joseph he would have been of Adam’s flesh.....but he was not the biological son of Joseph...he was the perfect, sinless Son of God. If he was of the same sinful flesh of Adam, then his sacrifice was meaningless. But you can’t see what is as plain as day to us. So be it.

Go in peace. Jesus will tell us both who is “doing the will of the Father” and who is “blinded” by God’s adversary. (Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

 

[LightofTruth]

Good bye @LightofTruth it is useless trying to get anything through to you. You are so busy trying to prove yourself “right” that you have missed every point given to you. I give up.

You are out on your own private limb with no one who agrees with your interpretation. If Jesus was a son of Joseph he would have been of Adam’s flesh.....but he was not the biological son of Joseph...he was the perfect, sinless Son of God. If he was of the same sinful flesh of Adam, then his sacrifice was meaningless. But you can’t see what is as plain as day to us. So be it.

Go in peace. Jesus will tell us both who is “doing the will of the Father” and who is “blinded” by God’s adversary. (Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

I didn't say Jesus was son of Joseph. Jesus was son of Mary. And son of David ......and get this......the Bible, when telling us he was son of David......adds this little bit of extra informantion...it says....now get this..."who was descended from David according to the flesh" !! Rom 1:3

Now isn't that an interesting to say!

Paul wants to drive home the fact, just in case you are confused, that Jesus was descended from David according to the flesh. Now what kind of flesh do you suppose David had?

Do you think it might possibly be the same flesh as Paul?

 

[LightofTruth]

And here's another little bit of information from John. Just in case anyone might get confused.

John was speaking to believers and therefore did not have to tell them whether or not Jesus had come but to make sure they knew he had come IN THE FLESH.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

If I were to confess Jesus had come in the flesh, what kind of flesh might I want to confess?

John, or no one else ever tells us Adam didn't have the same flesh as his offspring. That's a made up delusion of the JW's and other sects.

How many types of flesh does man have?

listen what Paul says:

1 Cor 15:39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans(man), another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.

There is only one kind of flesh for man.

Paul says there is one, the JW's say there are at least two. There is sinless flesh(Adam and Jesus) and there is sinful flesh(all the rest of mankind).....that's two kinds not one.

 

[rational experiences]

Without any thesis.

Human self natural.
Human self living on natural planet.

Natural history.

And you can think tell stories and argue.

Everyone is a human.

A human man title use.....he him his man male son father brother uncle grandfather.

As the thinker for state science.

To theory.yet first you are a human. Present living. Self owned without argument.

Then you want to tell human stories about why you exist.

First observation I am a baby adult.

No one today is the original human being first parent.

Our thinking self quotes our life personally formed from minute cell bodies sperm and ovary.

What the human whole bodied thinker says.

Notification to thinker. Not including the first two natural bodies. Human.

First two human parents mind says owned by everyone.

Another status you ignore today.

Relevant real information and not some false thesis.

Now if everyone is meant to be perfect and we know we no longer are the same equal self. One human in two experiences then you thesis why.

The answer brother sacrificed brother by occult science conditions the reasoning.

To answer why equal perfection was removed. What was once owned.

Then you read the Bible just a book that detailed medical genetics science healer advice as it's reasons. Twice caused.

Today you ask why are we so sick. Sacrificed of perfection. Dying in sacrificed bodies.

The UFO extra irradiation the answer.

Human science machines changed the earth body in its natural space womb evolution and have suffered since.

 

[LightofTruth]

Yes, Jesus was featured in the first prophesy (Genesis 3:15) as the one who would suffer a heal wound, but who would then deliver a head wound to the serpent......but his identity was unknown until his role as Messiah was fully outlined. The "sacred mystery (secret"...Colossians 1:26) unfolded over time as more details about Jesus' role were understood. Before then, no one fully understood who the players were in Genesis 3:15 or exactly what it meant, or how it would play out. We can see it clearly now.



I really don't understand why you want to pursue this discussion since you don't seem to agree on anything I say and I am not about to abandon 50 years of study to adopt your view....

I'm not telling you to abandon anything. I'm simply telling you what "in the flesh" means. It means to have the same flesh as all man. Jesus came in the flesh. And was a son of David according to the flesh. And there is only one kind of flesh of man........SINFUL FLESH!

The fact that you deny Jesus came in that same flesh is considered by John to be anti-Christ. I'm merely suggesting that you abandon anti-Christ ideas.

Now, getting back to the seed of the serpent whose head was bruised. That happened when Jesus offered himself, his flesh, as a sacrifice for sin. The writer of Hebrews puts it like this:

This is quoted from your NWT:

Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things,+ so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death,+ that is, the Devil,+ (Heb 2:14)

Where the NWT says that Jesus' death brought the devil to nothing other translation say that his death destroyed the devil. the meaning implies that the devils work had ceased through the death of Jesus.

The serpents head was bruised by the death of Jesus. The serpent was no longer able to continue to work on Jesus....he was destroyed and come to nothing. The reason the serpent(devil) had come to nothing (destroyed) when Jesus offered his flesh to be sacrificed was because sin resides in the flesh of man. Man's flesh is sinful. The thing that has the power of death, is not some imagined personal and powerful fallen angel, but sin. Adam sinned and death passed to all man. it only took one transgression to condemn the whole human race. And it only took one act to save the entire human race.

if Jesus' death brought the devil to nothing, Then why is the devil still around? It's because the devil, and his works, resides in the flesh of every human being. The devil was only destroyed in the flesh of Christ. The serpent received a crushing blow.

The lust of the flesh, called sinful flesh, and the devil are one and the same thing! The wages of sin is what? Death. He who has the power of death is who? the devil.

The devil is merely a personification of the lust of the flesh which caused the death of the entire human race. Jesus himself was under death's dominion. Because he was a mortal human and had been condemned to die by the one transgression which condemned all men to die.
Jesus was not only saving us all, but was saving himself also.

 

[rational experiences]

I'm not telling you to abandon anything. I'm simply telling you what "in the flesh" means. It means to have the same flesh as all man. Jesus came in the flesh. And was a son of David according to the flesh. And there is only one kind of flesh of man........SINFUL FLESH!

The fact that you deny Jesus came in that same flesh is considered by John to be anti-Christ. I'm merely suggesting that you abandon anti-Christ ideas.

Now, getting back to the seed of the serpent whose head was bruised. That happened when Jesus offered himself, his flesh, as a sacrifice for sin. The writer of Hebrews puts it like this:

This is quoted from your NWT:

Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things,+ so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death,+ that is, the Devil,+ (Heb 2:14)

Where the NWT says that Jesus' death brought the devil to nothing other translation say that his death destroyed the devil. the meaning implies that the devils work had ceased through the death of Jesus.

The serpents head was bruised by the death of Jesus. The serpent was no longer able to continue to work on Jesus....he was destroyed and come to nothing. The reason the serpent(devil) had come to nothing (destroyed) when Jesus offered his flesh to be sacrificed was because sin resides in the flesh of man. Man's flesh is sinful. The thing that has the power of death, is not some imagined personal and powerful fallen angel, but sin. Adam sinned and death passed to all man. it only took one transgression to condemn the whole human race. And it only took one act to save the entire human race.

if Jesus' death brought the devil to nothing, Then why is the devil still around? It's because the devil, and his works, resides in the flesh of every human being. The devil was only destroyed in the flesh of Christ. The serpent received a crushing blow.

The lust of the flesh, called sinful flesh, and the devil are one and the same thing! The wages of sin is what? Death. He who has the power of death is who? the devil.

The devil is merely a personification of the lust of the flesh which caused the death of the entire human race. Jesus himself was under death's dominion. Because he was a mortal human and had been condemned to die by the one transgression which condemned all men to die.
Jesus was not only saving us all, but was saving himself also.

No man is God is why jesus was sacrificed.

Man son baby of his own father.

God terms science thesis about earth....written designed built by his genetic human father. Just as stated.

His human father of God reviews did it to him. The scientist satanist.

No man is God stated by human logic.

Science is only human expressed.

Creation is not science

Mass O is energy formed in a spatial vacuum as God

Is that status too difficult to reason,?

No human in that review. How energy formed itself.

Stone released its stone gases.

Gases evolved in vacuum.

No human there either.

You can only talk human in human self presence.

If you were one human which you are just by yourself science would not be expressed.

You would live and die as one self.

Rationale.

Coercive sophism diction ARY words says a cunning contrivance because it is.

Science studies natural.

If the body studied did not exist then science would have nothing to say. Basic common sense.

The outcome you live in natural mass claiming safety whilst science changes a portion of it. Mass natural allowed life to be attacked. It allowed the experience. It's mass changed reacted then went back to being natural.

The study concluded mass became natural again as it was natural in first incidence.
The conditions mass survived change...
Water is holy.
Ice accrued reborn each December melted.
Earth atmosphere flooded burning gases cooling them.

The actual basic reasoning why life sacrificed existed surviving.

The thesis a letter to a numbered evaluation said Phi caused it by the named study Jesus. Why it was factored.

Numbers are in fact not letters.

However as words were first used to describe science thesis. The word proved human science caused it. Why it was stated fact by the word.

 

[Muffled]

I doubt it. Because he claims to be Jewish, and I dont think any Jewish person is that far apart.

I believe this sounds like a fun search for something that says Paul thought of the Jewish people as the only people on earth.

 

[rational experiences]

Lying words coercing arguing due to words.

Because science maths was not one first practiced. Not natural was introduced by a whole bodied living human. One thinker who did not think on behalf of two humans. Caused a human advice about artificial conditions to destroy us all.

My spiritual brothers who everyone knows had a secret group who dealt with satanic science AI possessed beliefs as they are in fact where lying began. For science. The state lying introduced. As was hatred.

Cause and effect of seeking destructive non spiritual dis spirited terms.

Mother said don't talk. Just sit peacefully. As the answer to all wrongs. As the answer itself.

Continually using words first does not give gods answer.

Commentary. The moment of God.
God in space history...when God was not in history.

The want science.

God became present once the seal and stone existed. God one mass as one stone. God moment.

Science says when God was in hell.

O earth as seal God was never in hell.

Origin sin consuming of body was origin of sin. A satanic theme. O angel mass in hell origin energy form.

Science said satanic hell existed before God. Is not never was God. The moment of.

Who took out of God as a seal and product sent God into hell...history. looking back. Male science did.

God in hell only God went there says the story conversion of.

Another one of their lies. Trying to search and find God in our bodies today for machine contacts. Claiming we own all powers on a dimension inside our bodies.

The argument. No man is God. What it was argued for. Human survival against satanic inanity.

As if a human began foming in out of As string moment in space. As energy itself.

Aligned to a no reaction for machine thesis...meaning healed constant presence. What you all own in life that satanic science thinks is magic. When the bio cell exists to replace itself as it is bio and not energy. I want my machine to have. Says satanic posession today.

Sacrifice. Occurred. Reactive change changed. Survived a reactive cause is not healing. Attack took thousands of years to evolve mutations.

When you say reaction you say change and a removal. When you say non removal you say no reaction. Science lying again. Science never had a reaction heal itself. It just stood reacting.

Natural mass before.
Natural mass survived.
Lucky to still exist the reality.

What was gone..one whole massed body the teaching.

Satanist theism. Liars.

A realist says water is our baptism. Mass by itself. Mass separate from science thesis alchemical strings placing hydrogen with water. Just separated thoughts. For science..not for reality natural status. Is lying.

Water mass one mass body is already separated.

Mass is mass by self one owned body presence.

We live in one mass as bio. Water. Water is historic a spirit of God. It is not a spirit of reaction.

Our title one equal human.

We don't use titles in truth telling for the purpose we are not theorising the sciences to claim I will know.

The answer today from spiritual human advice. Not lying.

 

[Muffled]

Lying words coercing arguing due to words.

Because science maths was not one first practiced. Not natural was introduced by a whole bodied living human. One thinker who did not think on behalf of two humans. Caused a human advice about artificial conditions to destroy us all.

My spiritual brothers who everyone knows had a secret group who dealt with satanic science AI possessed beliefs as they are in fact where lying began. For science. The state lying introduced. As was hatred.

Cause and effect of seeking destructive non spiritual dis spirited terms.

Mother said don't talk. Just sit peacefully. As the answer to all wrongs. As the answer itself.

Continually using words first does not give gods answer.

Commentary. The moment of God.
God in space history...when God was not in history.

The want science.

God became present once the seal and stone existed. God one mass as one stone. God moment.

Science says when God was in hell.

O earth as seal God was never in hell.

Origin sin consuming of body was origin of sin. A satanic theme. O angel mass in hell origin energy form.

Science said satanic hell existed before God. Is not never was God. The moment of.

Who took out of God as a seal and product sent God into hell...history. looking back. Male science did.

God in hell only God went there says the story conversion of.

Another one of their lies. Trying to search and find God in our bodies today for machine contacts. Claiming we own all powers on a dimension inside our bodies.

The argument. No man is God. What it was argued for. Human survival against satanic inanity.

As if a human began foming in out of As string moment in space. As energy itself.

Aligned to a no reaction for machine thesis...meaning healed constant presence. What you all own in life that satanic science thinks is magic. When the bio cell exists to replace itself as it is bio and not energy. I want my machine to have. Says satanic posession today.

Sacrifice. Occurred. Reactive change changed. Survived a reactive cause is not healing. Attack took thousands of years to evolve mutations.

When you say reaction you say change and a removal. When you say non removal you say no reaction. Science lying again. Science never had a reaction heal itself. It just stood reacting.

Natural mass before.
Natural mass survived.
Lucky to still exist the reality.

What was gone..one whole massed body the teaching.

Satanist theism. Liars.

A realist says water is our baptism. Mass by itself. Mass separate from science thesis alchemical strings placing hydrogen with water. Just separated thoughts. For science..not for reality natural status. Is lying.

Water mass one mass body is already separated.

Mass is mass by self one owned body presence.

We live in one mass as bio. Water. Water is historic a spirit of God. It is not a spirit of reaction.

Our title one equal human.

We don't use titles in truth telling for the purpose we are not theorising the sciences to claim I will know.

The answer today from spiritual human advice. Not lying.

Today that term is used to refer to all people, but the creators of Adan and Eve referred only to that race as human. So basically after doing my DNA test I only came out 1% human.