The importance of questioning faith.

[Tawn]

I dont know how familiar you are all with Derren Brown, hes a psychological illusionist who uses a mixture of sleight of hand, hypnosis, suggestion, psychology and showmanship to produce some amazing effects.

Anyhow, he did a show where he went to America (where presumably he is less well known) and pretended to have different abilities. Essentially acting as a charlatain.
He went to major figureheads of various belief systems and demonstrated his 'powers' (which were tricks of various sorts) and tried to pass himself off as authentic.

If at any point these people asked him - are you for real? Then he would own up and say it was just a trick.

Theres a full description of this programme here: http://www.robfisher.net/blog/archive/2005/01/08/what-is-it-about-derren-brown/

Anyway of particular relevance is when he claims to have had a near death experience which has given him the ability to convert agnostics to Christianity. To be fair the church leader was unwilling to accept him as authentic without further investigation... however this poses a serious question which he himself makes - ill quote it here:

Next up, Brown goes after the Christians. He doesn’t hold back.

I used to be a full on, happy clappy Christian until my mid 20s, and then I started to realise that my belief was just as prone to circular logic and self fulfillment as all the new-age nonsense which bugged me. And then reading the New Testament as a historical document finally rid me of any religeous belief.

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. But the real point he is making is this:

But if I can convert people through non-spiritual methods, how many people are out their doing the same thing in their own way?


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What is worrying is that occasionally there are Christians who at the end of a debate turn to 'faith' as their basis for belief. THey have faith - thats what allows them to believe and talk to God and thats their final argument. They have faith so they dont question God.


However, based on the above faith must surely be seen as ridiculous. Faith is so vunerable to corruption and abuse that it surely cannot be sanctioned by any sane mind.
Belief based on investigation is one thing.. but belief based on faith is pure folly.


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[Tawn]

Oh and a nice finishing sentiment in that column:
"I can’t think of anything more depressing and pointless than dedicating your life to a falsehood, which is why I think it’s so important to maintain a healthy, active skepticism."

 

[Melody]

What is worrying is that occasionally there are Christians who at the end of a debate turn to 'faith' as their basis for belief. THey have faith - thats what allows them to believe and talk to God and thats their final argument.

Belief based on investigation is one thing.. but belief based on faith is pure folly.

If you're talking about "blind faith" -- believing unquestioningly because it's family "tradition" -- then I agree. Even the Bible speaks about that. Blind faith leads to gullibility and deception.

However, at the end of the day, our belief is just based on faith. My husband and I have lots of debates and it *always* gets to the point where I have to say that I can't debate further because it depends on faith. If we could prove it to you undeniably, then everybody would be Christian (or whatever faith it happens to be that can be proved).

"I can’t think of anything more depressing and pointless than dedicating your life to a falsehood, which is why I think it’s so important to maintain a healthy, active skepticism."

I disagree. If I get to the end of my life and discover I was wrong, I would not look at my life and what I accomplished with that belief as pointless because everything I did throughout my life would also have been personally fulfilling.

 

[Tawn]

Could you tell me what the difference between faith and blind-faith is? By my definition faith is blind.. but perhaps you mean something else...

 

[Tawn]

Do you mean perhaps 'acceptance of the most probable?'
Nothing is provable beyond any doubt. Can you have faith with doubt?

 

[Halcyon]

I've seen Derren Brown, obviously since i'm a fellow Brit. I find his skills amazing, i haven't seen the programme you are talking about though.

Oh and a nice finishing sentiment in that column:
"I can’t think of anything more depressing and pointless than dedicating your life to a falsehood, which is why I think it’s so important to maintain a healthy, active skepticism."

That's because you don't understand. What's the point of your life? What makes you happy?
To many people their faith gives them a sense of a place in the world, a feeling of safety even in desperate situations and most importantly it often makes then happy in themselves. If someone wishes to have faith in something without basis in fact and it makes them very happy, friendly and fulfilled people, what's the harm caused to you?

I can understand anger directed against those who come up and annoy you, trying to convert you, but why mock those people who live their life the way they chose, without bothering anyone? Next time you get a JW or Morman at your door trying to convert you, instead of getting annoyed, use it as an oppotunity to learn about someone else's way of life, you might learn something. That goes for anyone, i'm not directing this at you Tawn in particular.

 

[Melody]

Could you tell me what the difference between faith and blind-faith is? By my definition faith is blind.. but perhaps you mean something else...

For an atheist, maybe all faith is blind since we can't prove what we believe.

To me, blind faith is accepting your faith because it's tradition and someone says so. Go to church every Sunday, listen to the sermon, go home and spout it off to others. Don't do any type of individual study to see if what you're being told is biblically based (assuming we're talking about christians).

 

[Tawn]

I can understand anger directed against those who come up and annoy you, trying to convert you, but why mock those people who live their life the way they chose, without bothering anyone? Next time you get a JW or Morman at your door trying to convert you, instead of getting annoyed, use it as an oppotunity to learn about someone else's way of life, you might learn something. That goes for anyone, i'm not directing this at you Tawn in particular.

Why direct it at me at all?
I happily discuss religion with people who come knocking at my door. I dont mock people for their beliefs... but i will treat them with distain if I think they dont have a valid basis for that belief.

 

[Halcyon]

Why direct it at me at all?
I happily discuss religion with people who come knocking at my door. I dont mock people for their beliefs... but i will treat them with distain if I think they dont have a valid basis for that belief.

You started the thread. Anyway, who decides what the valid reasons are, you or them?

 

[Druidus]

Oghma, one of my patron Gods, actually encourages us to question. He wants us to question everything, as the God of wisdom, logic, and knowledge. Thus, I question everything about my beliefs. I've come to believe some stuff, and not believe others.

Still, I have no basis for my beliefs besides what feels right, and what I have personally experienced. That's why I leave the door open. I put no limits on the amount of Gods that exist, whether it is 0-infinity. Gods play no role, in the grand scheme of things. Even an atheist can be a type of Druid.

 

[Tawn]

You started the thread.

Try to understand that my problem lies with how people arrive at their belief - not what beliefs they have. You misunderstood the entire emphasis of this thread.

Anyway, who decides what the valid reasons are, you or them?

Thats what I want to debate.

 

[Tawn]

Oghma, one of my patron Gods, actually encourages us to question. He wants us to question everything, as the God of wisdom, logic, and knowledge. Thus, I question everything about my beliefs. I've come to believe some stuff, and not believe others.

Cant say I understand Druidic faiths.. but if it allows you to question, then it is probably healthy.

Still, I have no basis for my beliefs besides what feels right, and what I have personally experienced. That's why I leave the door open.

What else is there except experience and feelings? We can never be sure about what we know.. thus keeping the door open to other possibilities is always a good thing.

 

[Druidus]

What else is there except experience and feelings? We can never be sure about what we know.. thus keeping the door open to other possibilities is always a good thing.

It must have been odd, however, when the ancient Druids convened in council, and each had slightly different beliefs than others.

 

[Halcyon]

Try to understand that my problem lies with how people arrive at their belief - not what beliefs they have. You misunderstood the entire emphasis of this thread.

Do I? Seems to me you have a problem with people having faith. And yet you have faith that there is no higher power, am i wrong?

Thats what I want to debate.

Really?

"I can’t think of anything more depressing and pointless than dedicating your life to a falsehood, which is why I think it’s so important to maintain a healthy, active skepticism."

Seems to me you already have your bias.

 

[Tawn]

Do I? Seems to me you have a problem with people having faith. And yet you have faith that there is no higher power, am i wrong?

Yes. I am open to the possibility that there is a God. I have no faith.. I just accept the most likely possibility until I arrive at new information which makes me reassess these probabilities.

Really?
Seems to me you already have your bias.

If your only purpose for getting involved in this thread is to irritate me for no good reason then I suggest you stop. Everyone has opinions - thats why we debate and discuss stuff.

 

[Halcyon]

Hmmm, my intention is not to irritate. However, you have a clearly visible opinion that faith = wrong, where is the room for debate?

 

[Tawn]

Well tell me why it isnt. Theres the debate.

 

[Halcyon]

I've already said that faith often gives people happiness, is happiness wrong - even if its foundations are illogical?

 

[Fluffy]

I've already said that faith often gives people happiness, is happiness wrong - even if its foundations are illogical?

If it is illogical then it is wrong in the correct sense but not necessarily wrong in the moral sense.

Tawn, what other viable option is there than basing what one believes on faith? Faith must enter into the equation at some point so what does it matter when it does?

 

[Tawn]

If it is illogical then it is wrong in the correct sense but not necessarily wrong in the moral sense.

I heartily agree.

Tawn, what other viable option is there than basing what one believes on faith? Faith must enter into the equation at some point so what does it matter when it does?

It depends what you mean by faith. Im probably referring to what you would call blind-faith..
To me I have no faith. I accept the most probable likelihoods and act on those if I have to - but im always open to alternative truths. If I cant find a 'probable' answer to a question.. then I accept no answer and leave it at that until some new information comes along.